KALKASUNDA (Bengali) :: 26-03-2012

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 2:16:53 PM3/26/12

to indian...@googlegroups.com

Sir,

"Plant Groups" gives me two species Cassia sophera & C. occidentalis for the plant what we call KALKASUNDA in Bengali. Both the species are referred as KALKASUNDA in Bengali. Moreover, 'wikipedia' says Cassia should be replaced by Senna.

I go for Senna sophera for the images attached herewith because of its more elongated leaflets.

Species : Senna sp.

Habit & Habitat : wild herb, roadside

Date : 17-03-2012, 1.40 p.m.

Place : Hooghly, WB

(images 800x600)

Thank you & Regards,

Surajit Koley

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 2:39:36 PM3/26/12

to efloraofindia

Hopefully it is कालकसौंदा not कल्कसुन्दा

कसौंदा or कसौंदी is Hindi name of Cassia (Senna) sophera. What is the meaning of "Kal" in Bengali? Is it for black?

Kasaunda is mentioned in famous writing of Malik Md. Jayesi. There are many villages in Chhattisgarh named as Kasaunda or Kasaundi.

कोइ बिजौंर, करौंदा-जूरी । कोइ अमिली, कोइ महुअ, खजूरी ॥
काहू हरफारेवरि कसौंदा । कोइ अँवरा, कोइ राय-करौंदा ॥

Thanks for sharing.

Pankaj Oudhia

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 2:48:29 PM3/26/12

to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

Thank you Pankaj Sir for pointing my mistake, it should be KAALKAASUNDA.

In Bengali KAAL = tomorrow, time, era.... Black is pronounced as KAALO ('O' as in go).

Regards,

Surajit

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 2:53:46 PM3/26/12

to efloraofindia

Thanks but not satisfied. What "Tomorrow" is doing with Kasaunda in Kaalkasaunda? Lets wait for our Bengali speaking members viz. Prof. Tanay and Dr. Usha (Di).

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 3:00:46 PM3/26/12

to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

Sir,

The same question bothers me too - why it is KAALKASUNDA?! Usha di or Tanay Sir may help. I myself will try by consulting Bengali lexicon.

Good night Sir...

Regards,

Surajit

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 3:11:56 PM3/26/12

to efloraofindia

As far as difference in Senna sophera and Senna occidentalis is concerned it can not be on leaflets but

" Senna sophera is closely related to Senna occidentalis (L.)Link. The two are often confused, but the pods of the latter are circular in cross-section, not compressed, and have 2 rows of seeds. "

http://database.prota.org/PROTAhtml/Senna%20sophera_En.htm

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

Dr Pankaj Kumar

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 8:41:23 PM3/26/12

to indian...@googlegroups.com

KAAL may also stand for BLACK, pertaining to its BLACK SEEDS!!!

Pankaj

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 9:54:08 PM3/26/12

to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

God morning Sir.

Thank you for the identifying keys to the both species. Attaching an image of the pod of the same plant.

Regards,

Surajit

podDSCN0719.jpg

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 10:06:15 PM3/26/12

to Dr Pankaj Kumar, indian...@googlegroups.com

Good morning Sir. Thank you for the key to the vernacular names of the KAALKAASUNDAA.

Regards,

Surajit

Gurcharan Singh

unread,

Mar 26, 2012, 11:18:23 PM3/26/12

to surajit koley, Dr Pankaj Kumar, indian...@googlegroups.com

Surajit ji

Here is the part of the key developed by me on our webside:

39b	Gland at base of petiole, sessile, hemispherical; leaflets 4-6 pairs; pod 10-13 cm long, compressed, glabrous, often slightly curved, 20-30 seeded, torulose when mature	Senna occidentalis
39b	Gland situated 3-10 mm above the base of petiole, clavate; leaflets 6-10 pairs; pod 5-10 cm long, somewhat inflated, puberulent when young, glabrous when mature, not curved, 30-40 seeded, not torulose when mature	40

40a	Leaflets 4-9 cm long, acute or mucronate, branches not purple	Senna sophera var. sophera
40b	Leaflets less than 3 cm long, obtuse at apex; branches slender, purple	Senna sophera var. purpurea

The full key for Cassia complex in India is available at our website:

https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/f/fabaceae/cassia

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 27, 2012, 12:48:31 AM3/27/12

to efloraofindia

Thanks Gurcharan ji. Is it based on published literature or field observations or both? May I know the number of plants studied (in how many number of locations) for range 20-30 seeds or 30-40 seeds? Its bit wide range the early workers were using when fields were far from lab.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 27, 2012, 1:43:41 AM3/27/12

to efloraofindia

Black seeds of Senna sophera???? It must be new discovery Dr. Pankaj Kumar Sahani ji. Let me know the reference for your quote. Here is image of Senna sophera seeds from wikipedia

http://gu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AA%9A%E0%AA%BF%E0%AA%A4%E0%AB%8D%E0%AA%B0:Senna_sophera_seeds.jpg

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 27, 2012, 1:13:09 PM3/27/12

to Gurcharan Singh, Dr Pankaj Kumar, indian...@googlegroups.com

Thank you Sir for the link related to identifying various Cassia species. Thank you once again for pasting here the related data.

But it makes more difficult to me to ID this plant. The 8 to 9 pairs of leaflets (i counted 3 leaves from three different plants) tells me that it is Senna sophera, but slightly curved & torulose (had to search for its meaning!) young pods tell me otherwise.

So, i would have to check the mature pods physically and also those glands on petiole before i can make a conclusion.

Regards,

Surajit

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 27, 2012, 1:32:16 PM3/27/12

to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

Sir,

Bengali dictionary didn't help me except that KAAL also means 'cold' or 'winter'(?). There is no word as KAASUNDAA (U is pronounced as OO). KAASUNDI or KAASUNDA is there, meaning a type of pickle, usually made of green mango and i knew it beforehand.

I think searching the Bengali root for the KAALKAASUNDAA may not give any result. Instead should we move to Sanskrit for its origin? It's bad that i do not know Sanskrit.

Regards,

Surajit

Gurcharan Singh

unread,

Mar 27, 2012, 11:22:54 PM3/27/12

to surajit koley, Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

Surajit ji

It is definitely not S. occidentalis which has less than 6 pairs of leaflets, flattened pods. You can see what torulose means (constricted between seeds). I have attached image of S. occidentalis.

Now you should concentrate on whether it is Senna sophera var. sophera (leaflets 4-9 cm long, braches not purple), or var. purpurea ( leaflets less than 3 cm long, braches slender and purple). From appearance it appears var. sophera to me.

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

Cassia-occiodentalis-Herbal-gdn-14-10-DSC05791-b.jpg

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 2:30:17 PM3/28/12

to indian...@googlegroups.com, surajit koley, Pankaj Oudhia, Gurcharan Singh, Dr Pankaj Kumar

Sir,

Today i shot some more close-ups of this plant. This is definitely not S. occidentalis as Gurcharan Sir already mentioned. It is, i think, Senna sophera var. sophera.

gland 3 to 5 mm above the leaf base

leaflet - 6 cm long

pod 9 cm long

no. of seeds 56 (varies between 46 to 56, checked 5 pods)

TS of pod

pod split open

Thank you & Regards,

Surajit Koley

Dinesh Valke

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 2:42:55 PM3/28/12

to surajit koley, indian...@googlegroups.com, Pankaj Oudhia, Gurcharan Singh, Dr Pankaj Kumar

Salutes, Surajit ji.
Regards.
Dinesh

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 2:53:54 PM3/28/12

to Dinesh Valke, indian...@googlegroups.com

Thank you Dinesh Sir... you are too generous :)

Regards,

Surajit

Vijayasankar

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 4:06:19 PM3/28/12

to surajit koley, Dinesh Valke, indian...@googlegroups.com

Great work Surajit ji!
I liked the eflora design, too :)

Regards

Vijayasankar Raman
National Center for Natural Products Research
University of Mississippi

ushadi Micromini

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 9:07:32 PM3/28/12

to Vijayasankar, surajit koley, efloraofindia

Surajit: Very nice...
I like your tenacity and can do attitude...
well done...

And it was a very good lesson...
thanks to you I got to relook at the key developed by Gurcharanji
https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/a---l/f/fabaceae/cassia
for Indian Species of Cassia Complex (Cassia, Chamaecrista, Senna)

thanks..
Usha di

--
Usha di
===========

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 9:42:26 PM3/28/12

to Vijayasankar, indian...@googlegroups.com

Good morning Sir.

The 'design' was a sudden flash of an idea while i was counting the seeds! Would have loved if i could manage the entire word, efloraofindia.

Regards,

Surajit

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 28, 2012, 9:50:19 PM3/28/12

to ushadi Micromini, efloraofindia

Good morning Madam.

Thank you for your continuous support. I can only produce images, and in the process is learning what i should had learned years ago.

Regards,

Surajit

Ritesh Kumar Choudhary

unread,

Mar 29, 2012, 12:19:23 AM3/29/12

to indian...@googlegroups.com

Dear all,

May I request everybody to consider Senna floribunda (Cassia floribunda) too? Had collected the same from Arunachal Pradesh during my Ph.D. work.

http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000789268

Regards,
Ritesh.

Gurcharan Singh

unread,

Mar 29, 2012, 1:01:32 AM3/29/12

to Ritesh Kumar Choudhary, indian...@googlegroups.com

Ritesh ji

Senna florinbunda is a shrub or tree, leaflets only 3-5 pairs, there are clavate glands between all pairs of leaflets except uppermost, pods are compressed and much broader (12-15 mm). It is rather closer to Senna surattensis

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 29, 2012, 3:49:54 AM3/29/12

to efloraofindia

Usha ji,

Two step identification keys for Senna occidentalis and Senna sophera from MM Bhandari's flora.

Bracts acute, 2-4 flowers- Senna occidentalis

Bracts obtuse, more than 4 flowers- Senna sophera.

It may be added in identification keys.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

unread,

Mar 29, 2012, 4:03:01 AM3/29/12

to efloraofindia

In continuation of previous mail

Petioles not grooved with large gland at the base- Senna occidentalis

Petioles grooved with a conical gland at the base- Senna sophera

From flora of Madhya Pradesh, published by BSI.

regards

Pankaj Oudhia

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 6:37 AM, ushadi Micromini <micromi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gurcharan Singh

unread,

Mar 29, 2012, 7:10:37 AM3/29/12

to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

Thanks Pankaj ji for useful information. I will add this to the key to make it more stronger.

--
Dr. Gurcharan Singh
Retired Associate Professor
SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007
Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018.
Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089

http://www.gurcharanfamily.com/
http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/

surajit koley

unread,

Mar 29, 2012, 1:51:02 PM3/29/12

to Gurcharan Singh, efloraofindia

Thanks to All, once again, for this very elaborate discussion. Attaching another image of the gland.

Regards,

Surajit

gland_VSCN1301.jpg

vip...@gmail.com

unread,

Apr 3, 2012, 10:41:04 PM4/3/12

to Pankaj Oudhia, efloraofindia

Dear sir,

Thank you very much for relating this medieval lyric by Malik Mohammad Jaisi. I was deeply moved by the evocative spirit of his Basant Khand when I first learnt about it some years back.

Best wishes, Viplav

El 27 de marzo de 2012 00:09, Pankaj Oudhia <pankaj...@gmail.com> escribió:

Hopefully it is कालकसौंदा not कल्कसुन्दा

कसौंदा or कसौंदी is Hindi name of Cassia (Senna) sophera. What is the meaning of "Kal" in Bengali? Is it for black?

Kasaunda is mentioned in famous writing of Malik Md. Jayesi. There are many villages in Chhattisgarh named as Kasaunda or Kasaundi.

कोइ बिजौंर, करौंदा-जूरी । कोइ अमिली, कोइ महुअ, खजूरी ॥
काहू हरफारेवरि कसौंदा । कोइ अँवरा, कोइ राय-करौंदा ॥

Thanks for sharing.

Pankaj Oudhia

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:46 PM, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sir,

"Plant Groups" gives me two species Cassia sophera & C. occidentalis for the plant what we call KALKASUNDA in Bengali. Both the species are referred as KALKASUNDA in Bengali. Moreover, 'wikipedia' says Cassia should be replaced by Senna.

I go for Senna sophera for the images attached herewith because of its more elongated leaflets.

Species : Senna sp.

Habit & Habitat : wild herb, roadside
Date : 17-03-2012, 1.40 p.m.
Place : Hooghly, WB
(images 800x600)

vip...@gmail.com

unread,

Apr 3, 2012, 10:53:58 PM4/3/12

to surajit koley, efloraofindia, Pankaj Oudhia

Have seen both in South Kachchh and they are also documented in Thakar's treatise on the plants of Kachchh [1926].

In Gujarati, Cassia purpurea [i.e. Senna sophera var. purpurea] is known as કાળી કાસુંદરી [Kaali Kasundari]. In Kachchhi, some of its descriptive names are Kaari Sundari and Shyam Sundari.

From what I gather, 'Kaali' signifies the diagnostic 'darker' appearance [purple twigs] of the variety purpurea. In contrast, the variety sophera is simply known as Kasundari while S. occidentalis is Kasundaro in Gujarati.

I'll make it a point to photograph these when I go there this year.

Best wishes, Viplav

El 27 de marzo de 2012 06:11, Dr Pankaj Kumar <sahani...@gmail.com> escribió:

KAAL may also stand for BLACK, pertaining to its BLACK SEEDS!!!
Pankaj

surajit koley

unread,

Apr 4, 2012, 2:14:46 PM4/4/12

to vip...@gmail.com, efloraofindia, Pankaj Oudhia

Thank you Sir for so much info,

It is interesting to note that SHYAM (= KRISHNA) is also known as KAALAA in Bengali, for his dark complexion! So, 'Shyam Sundari' in Kachchhi sounds similar to Benagali KAALKAASOONDA!

KALKASUNDA (Bengali) :: 26-03-2012 :: Hooghly (WB) SK

surajit koley

Pankaj Oudhia

surajit koley

Pankaj Oudhia

surajit koley

Pankaj Oudhia

Dr Pankaj Kumar

surajit koley

surajit koley

Gurcharan Singh

Pankaj Oudhia

Pankaj Oudhia

surajit koley

surajit koley

Gurcharan Singh

surajit koley

Dinesh Valke

surajit koley

Vijayasankar

ushadi Micromini

surajit koley

surajit koley

Ritesh Kumar Choudhary

Gurcharan Singh

Pankaj Oudhia

Pankaj Oudhia

Gurcharan Singh

surajit koley

vip...@gmail.com

vip...@gmail.com

surajit koley