Mystery Palm from Columbia...

[Mandrew968]

Ok, so my Dad won a 'mystery palm' at the SFPS silent auction. The palm was collected from an Island off the coast of Colombia/Columbia, near the Panama border. The palm is palmate, has silver on the abaxial leaf surface and was said to be of Coccothrinax size(about 20 plus feet) with an odd, undulating trunk. I asked about the flower structure, to which the gentleman collector agreed it was 'like a crab claw'.

When I first saw the tag, "Mystery Palm from Colombia" I thought about that cool new genus Sabinaria! Calm down folks, because it's not a Sabinaria. Someone at the party dismissed it as a Sabal, but that's absurd! When we got the palm home, we re-potted it, the next morning and excavated the base to get to the root initiation zone. What I found was a bulbous bottom with split leaf bases and NO heel--which rules out Sabal, like I initially thought...

So what is this thing??? Well, I went back to the clues and thought the inflorescence 'like a crab claw' was a great place to start. Thinking under this parameter, Cryosophila came to mind. The flower structure would fit this genus and the overall dimensions were right as well... but the trunk didn't fit Cryosophila. Still, I looked up palms from Columbia, under that genus and found kalbreyeri. Looking up characteristics for this palm showed me I was in the right location, but kalbreyeri is one of the most diminutive of all Cryosophila and what few photos I could find showed heavy spines on the trunk. Based on the Collector's description, this is not my palm...

With a little more research, I got to another possible genus: Chelyocarpus. This was a promising genus to look to as it is native to Columbia and fits the floral description. So, now to look at the species; I ruled out chuco right off the bat because of the cepitose habit(plus I have seen this palm before and was fairly certain this is not the mystery palm). That left three more possible options, if this palm is to be a Chelyocarpus. repens I ruled out from the description of the height of the palm that the seed was collected. The last two possible species were ulei and dianeurus. I have seen ulei and it's a beautiful palm but I don't think it's the mystery palm my father purchased. Based on my research, that leaves one palm to which I think the mystery palm may be: Chelyocarpus dianeurus. I am not certain but I think this is the SFPS mystery palm. An obscure palm with little information available on it, but what I did find is it is found in lowland coastal areas of Columbia...

I am fairly certain I have an accurate identification on this palm, but wanted to share with Palmtalk and some of the folks who were at the party and know of the palm I am speaking of. I encourage dialogue on this palm! Sorry for no photos, but I am having an issue with uploading--if anyone wants, I can email them three photos of the palm in question and maybe they can upload them to this page? Thanks for your time, everyone!

[Mandrew968]

Photos from the SFPS party...

[Moose]

Looks like a Cyclanthaceae to me

[Moose]

Caveat emptor

[Mandrew968]

More photos. Moose, I think it's a palm--that would be pretty crazy if it wasn't!

[Mandrew968]

Caveat emptor

I imagine that emoticon was for when you realized it doesn't apply to charity fundraising.

[Moose]

How stiff are those leaves? Looks like it could be a Sabal "lisa"

[Mandrew968]

Sabal 'lisa' + Colombia = NO

[_Keith]

Green Bismarckia?

[Zeeth]

Cryosophila sp?

[Mandrew968]

Cryosophila sp?

It's similar, but the collector said the trunk was not spiny--I specifically asked.

[Zeeth]

From what I'm finding, I think that Chelyocarpus dianeurus might be a good ID, but have you looked into Itaya amicorum? I can't find much info on the latter, but it seems relatively closely aligned with Cheloycarpus and Cryosophila.

[Moose]

Gentlemen - look at page 235 of Genera Palmarum. Chelyocarpus does not even have the coast of Columbia as its habitat. As for Itaya, your on the wrong side of the Andes. Its a palm indigenous to the Amazon. See Genera Palmarum page 241.

The only genus in the Cryosophilea alliance that inhabits the area of the Columbian island is Cryosphila.

Snatch the pebble from my hand grasshopper.

[Pedro 65]

Cryosophila sp?

It's similar, but the collector said the trunk was not spiny--I specifically asked.

Our large Crysophila isnt spiny "at all" and it been flowering for a "few years' Pete

[Ken Johnson]

Who donated that Sabal?

[Zeeth]

Gentlemen - look at page 235 of Genera Palmarum. Chelyocarpus does not even have the coast of Columbia as its habitat. As for Itaya, your on the wrong side of the Andes. Its a palm indigenous to the Amazon. See Genera Palmarum page 241.

The only genus in the Cryosophilea alliance that inhabits the area of the Columbian island is Cryosphila.

Snatch the pebble from my hand grasshopper.

Thanks Moose!

[Rory]

I wouldn't rule out Cryosophila just because of the lack of spines. There's a mature completely spineless one at one of the properties I work at, like the one Pete mentioned.

[Jose Maria]

I have found many Cryosophila grayumii in the forests here and had to look very closely to find one little root-spine.

I don´t know about C.kalbreyeri, the candidate here.

On the other hand, C .guagara from around here all are fully and thickly covered in root-spines.

We will have to wait and see how this mystery -palm grows.

[Matt in SD]

I don't believe that is Cryosophila. I have a Crysophila kalbreyeri about that size and it's very different looking. Cryosophila are not costapalmate (the palm in the photo is), and there is usually a whitish, powdery appearance to the lower petioles on Cryosophila. Regarding spines, I don't think any Cryosophila would have spines at that size. The spines are modified roots and I've only seen them as the trunk begins to form, but on a trunking C warscewicziana I have there are almost no spines. But still, I just don't see how that palm could be Cryosophila, just the wrong look entirely.

I have grown a Chelyocarpus chuco for a short period of time and I think it looked closer to that palm, but still not right...too much costapalmate. I have to say that I think it's a Sabal (maybe S yapa?). Wouldn't be the first time someone mixed up seeds. But I guess I can't really rule out Itaya or Chelyocarpus (other than chuco)...just haven't seen them enough.

Matt

[Matt in SD]

Just looked at some photos of smaller Itaya and it's definitely not a match. They have blunt/jagged leaf ends even at a small size. Also, looking at other Chelyocarpus species photos, it seems like your palm is just too costapalmate.

Sure looks like Sabal yapa.

[Mandrew968]

I don't think yapa has the silver undersides to the leaf. Also, there is no heel--has anyone ever encountered a Sabal without a saxophone root? I am going to disregard any further posts from Moose.

[Mandrew968]

I wouldn't rule out Cryosophila just because of the lack of spines. There's a mature completely spineless one at one of the properties I work at, like the one Pete mentioned.

Very true--almost all rootspine palms grown in the full sun, do not have rootspines--the shade is what causes them to manifest. I guess I am assuming this palm grew in the shade and that NO CRYOSOPHILA has a smooth undulating trunk...

[Matt in SD]

S yapa does have the silvery undersides. But no heel is a bit weird. Looking a the close up photo of the base on a larger screen now, it does look odd in general for Sabal. It almost looks like the petiole is very lightly armed? Also, is the leaf thick and tough like sabal, or more papery and flexible? Crysophila has a very papery leaf compared to Sabal, which is more like construction paper or cardboard.

Interesting...

What's wrong with Moose's post? I don't have Genera palmarum so can't check if it's accurate info, but it seems like good info.

Matt

[Jose Maria]

Matt in SD:

....Cryosophila are not costapalmate (the palm in the photo is).....

I completely agree with you Matt.

Also I have a small Cryosophila guagara in the garden, about the size of the mystery palm, and already a rootspine!Without a trunk.

White powdery scales on the underside of leaf

Leaf, not costapalmate at all

First rootspine coming out of roots ,no trunk yet

All this rules out a Cryosophila, instead might belong to the Cyclantaceae ?

[Mandrew968]

S yapa does have the silvery undersides. But no heel is a bit weird. Looking a the close up photo of the base on a larger screen now, it does look odd in general for Sabal. It almost looks like the petiole is very lightly armed? Also, is the leaf thick and tough like sabal, or more papery and flexible? Crysophila has a very papery leaf compared to Sabal, which is more like construction paper or cardboard.

Interesting...

What's wrong with Moose's post? I don't have Genera palmarum so can't check if it's accurate info, but it seems like good info.

Matt

Matt, the petioles are not armed but they are split at the base, like a Thrinax. I didn't say anything was wrong with a moose post, he just seems to be insincere with them. The leaves are not as stiff as a Sabal but they are not papery--I am fairly certain this palm is in the tribe Cryosophileae, unless some of the clues are not factual, which I am currently stipulating.

[Mandrew968]

"All this rules out a Cryosophila, instead might belong to the Cyclantaceae ?"

Assuming the collector was not lying to me, do any species of Cyclantaceae get 20 plus feet tall?

[Ken Johnson]

Sabal maritiiformis in my book. The heel feature can be variable depending on some environmental factors I believe. This one shows a blunt base which would be the bent part of the saxophone but because it was shade grown for a while it aborted quest to grow with gravity.

[Jose Maria]

Lying is ...well..lying.

The collector could be mistaken and mixed-up some seeds instead? I remember having seen Cyclantaceae looking very much like the "Mystery" palm.

[Mandrew968]

Sabal maritiiformis in my book. The heel feature can be variable depending on some environmental factors I believe. This one shows a blunt base which would be the bent part of the saxophone but because it was shade grown for a while it aborted quest to grow with gravity.

What you are saying is they don't know a Sabal mauritiiformis when they see one? Being the collector's esteemed background, it's hard to think they could so grossly misidentify...

Thanks, all who have commented!

[Ken Johnson]

I don't know who "they" are. I am only going by the hints and a picture. Now we just sit back and wait...

[MattyB]

I said this was S. mauritiformis when he posted this on facebook or another thread I don't remember. I want credit when this thing turns out to be Sabal. Sometimes the heeled palms don't form a heel until a little bit later. It's hiding under the leaf bases for now. Mark my words.

[Ken Johnson]

I said this was S. mauritiformis when he posted this on facebook or another thread I don't remember. I want credit when this thing turns out to be Sabal. Sometimes the heeled palms don't form a heel until a little bit later. It's hiding under the leaf bases for now. Mark my words.

I will make sure you get 100% of something if it comes....someone told that palm "don't be a heel"?

[MattyB]

I found the facebook post. It was by Mike.

[Mandrew968]

I said this was S. mauritiformis when he posted this on facebook or another thread I don't remember. I want credit when this thing turns out to be Sabal. Sometimes the heeled palms don't form a heel until a little bit later. It's hiding under the leaf bases for now. Mark my words.

I see-interesting there is another post of the same thing on a different media form...

[Mandrew968]

I found the facebook post. It was by Mike.

Matty, when should I expect a heel to appear? in the meantime, has anyone ever witnessed a Sabal without a heel? I have seen mauritiiformis smaller than this with a heel--not that I am saying you are wrong, Matty and Ken Johnson...

[MattyB]

I have not witnessed a sabal that size without a heel. But I have witnessed some heeled Dypsis that were large enough to have a heel and they did not, only to later reveal the one they were forming below the leaf bases. Not sure if that translates to Sabal.

Wait a minute, I just went back and looked at your pics. I think it does have a heel forming.

[Mandrew968]

Matty, I know it looks like that, but I had to use some of the dirt to cover some root from the initial excavation--the base of the palm is round and boulbous--no heel.

[MattyB]

I know. Round and bulbous is the heel forming, underneath the leaf bases. Soon you'll peel off one of those leaf bases and surprise, there's your heel.

Here's an example of a Dypsis that hid that heel from me for a while, but it was forming under those bulbous leaf bases.

Dypsis carlsmithii

[Mandrew968]

Coccothrinax has the the bulbous look I mention--very rarely do you see a heel on them... I think I will need to get a better picture of the base.

[MattyB]

You're right, there are lots of non-heeled palms that form a bulbous base, like Pseudophoenix sargentii, or Dypsis onilahensis for example. I just think it looks like S. mauritiformis so I'm assuming that the bulbous base is a heel forming.