8N wiring

[H. Wayne Smith]

I have 1951 8N tractor that has been converted to 12 volts. Can the Ignition switch be wired between the wire from the solenoid and the ammeter gauge. Since the ignition switch is really an on/off switch, that seems to be a way to cut the power in case of an electrical problem. This also seems to be a way to control when the tractor can be started. I do use the starter button on the transmission cover because of the safety issues involved. I am using the wiring shown in the Gingell's video and their conversion booklet.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 08:45:29 04/15/23) I have 1951 8N tractor that has been converted to 12 volts. Can the Ignition switch be wired between the wire from the solenoid and the ammeter gauge. Since the ignition switch is really an on/off switch, that seems to be a way to cut the power in case of an electrical problem. This also seems to be a way to control when the tractor can be started. I do use the starter button on the transmission cover because of the safety issues involved. I am using the wiring shown in the Gingell's video and their conversion booklet.

ong reach, asking people to spend time/effort to research this G persons video/documents, and I didn't, but....your alternator is likely a 60amp alternator....can your ignition switch handle 60 amps? Not likely.

 

[wore out]

A ''keyed battery disconnect'' will do what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[H. Wayne Smith]

I was trying to give a reference to the wiring that I used. Here is a description of part of the wiring: one wire from alternator to negative post on ammeter. There are two wires on the positive post of the ammeter. One to the solenoid and one to ignition switch. The ignition switch's other wire connects to terminal block. On the same terminal block post a wire goes to the coil's positive post. There are two other wires: one from solenoid to battery and one from solenoid to push button starter switch.

The connection that I was thinking about would involve a wire from terminal block to positive post on ammeter and putting the ignition between the wire from the solenoid to the positive post on the ammeter. I do not think that would effect the alternator wiring.

 

[used red MN]

Your wiring is not correctly connected to the ammeter
to allow it to read both battery charging and battery
discharge from loads to the system. Now I hope I get
this correct on the polarity of the ammeter if my
suggested connections cause the gauge to read in
reverse the wires simply need swapped from side to
side. The main thing is that on the ammeter I believe it
is to the positive terminal only one wire goes on it, the
one from the large terminal of the solenoid where the
battery cable connects, no other wires on that circuit.
In the last part of your description of your wiring you
say ..There are two other wires: one from solenoid to
battery and one from solenoid to push button starter
switch.. I take it the first wire you are describing is the
actual battery cable? If not that needs more
clarification and means you must not have an original
style 3 terminal solenoid. Those have two large
terminals one for the battery cable and one for the
starter feed cable and the third small terminal
activates it by the transmission case button grounding
its internal magnetic coil. With that original style
solenoid the suggestion by wore out to install a battery
disconnect is the only way to disable the starter from
accidentally being energized like when a kid is playing
on the tractor. If your solenoid has 4 terminals your will
have to report back what the markings are by the small
terminals to determine the correct connection of your
solenoid. Has the tractor been started and run with the
connections you described? I am attaching a link to
wiring diagram for Fords. The 2nd from the top is what
you should reference. I am not sure what type of
alternator you are using if it is a one wire you can
disregard any part of the circuits that are shown off
the P1 and P2 terminals on the alternator shown. I look
briefly at the video mostly to see the solenoid they
show and it was an original 3 terminal I described
above. Also I confirmed only one wire is connecting to
one side of the ammeter as I suggested is correct
above and as shown on the attached diagram.
Ford wiring diagrams

 

[used red MN]

Sorry; let me also give you a proper greeting, Hello H. Wayne welcome to YT!

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

Model year means nothing unless a verified early '47/'48 8N for restoration, as things could be swapped out. A 51 N would indicate it has the later Angle (Side) Mount
distributor and steering box. So, why would you want to do that? Why don't you wire your 8N correctly for 12V? Your question implies you are having wiring issues now,
probably a non-starting condition. Is your GEN and VR removed from the circuit and replaced with an ALT? Is the ALT 1-Wire or 3-Wires? Does your ALT have a fan belt
tension bracket attached? No? You will never charge the battery without proper fan belt tension. Never, period. Do you have a 6V Coil? If so and you want 12V, you need
the extra external, in-line 1-OHM resistor in the coil circuit or else discard the resistor and swap out the 6V coil to a verified 12V coil (my choice). Is your 8N
Starter Motor correct with the 3-Wire Relay (Solenoid)? Do you know how to do a proper tune-up? Don't guess or take shortcuts. You plan on doing extra work on your
wiring so do it right the first time and avoid any headaches after. The tractor starting is already controlled by the ignition key switch needing to be turned ON
then pressing the Neutral Safety Start Pushbutton. Simple, basic, and no extra alternate wiring is needed. You want the wiring to remain exact-as-original I will
advise. Why risk a disaster having your kid, grand kid, or wife try starting the tractor and not knowing the proper procedure? Never leave the ignition key in the
switch either - that is another Safety precaution. There's a lot more to wiring these N's so get the ESSENTIAL MANUALS along with the related diagrams and learn/know
how to do it right.

FORD LATE 8N, 50-52 WIRING 6V/POS GRN:

*YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW THE 6V SYSTEM WORKS BEFORE YOU START MESSING WITH 12V.

8N TRACTOR WIRING PICTOGRAMS, by JMOR, OEM 6V/POS GRN & 12V CONVERSIONS SHOWN:

8N WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR, 6V & THE 12V CONVERSION:

8N w/SIDE MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR USING A 6V COIL, NOTE INLINE 1-OHM RESISTOR:

FORD 8N ANGLE MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR, 50-52:

NOTE: NOTHING CHANGES ON THE DISTRIBUtOR WHEN DOING A CONVERSION EXCEPT THE COIL IF YOU OPT FOR A 12V COIL. BETTER HAVE THE OEM MANAUL TO DO IT RIGHT.


THE FORD 8N ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS are required as a FORD OWNER regardless. Besides the OEM 6V POS GRN wiring, all other systems are detailed
as well.

WORDS of WISDOM:

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

Model year means nothing unless a verified early '47/'48 8N for restoration, as things could be swapped out. The most important features are if you have a front mount
or a side mount distributor and if using 6V or 12V system. '51 8N would indicate it has the later Angle (Side) Mount distributor and steering box. So, regarding your
question, why would you want to do that? Why don't you wire your 8N correctly for 12V? Your question implies you are having wiring issues now, probably a non-starting
condition. Is your GEN and VR removed from the circuit and replaced with an ALT? Is the ALT 1-Wire or 3-Wires? Does your ALT have a fan belt tension bracket attached?
No? You will never charge the battery without proper fan belt tension. Never, period. Do you have a 6V Coil? If so and you want 12V, you need the extra external, in-
line 1-OHM resistor in the coil circuit or else discard the resistor and swap out the 6V coil to a verified 12V coil (my choice). Is your 8N Starter Motor correct with
the 3-Wire Relay (Solenoid)? Do you know how to do a proper tune-up? Don't guess or take shortcuts. You plan on doing extra work on your wiring so do it right the
first time and avoid any headaches after. The tractor starting is already controlled by the ignition key switch needing to be turned ON then pressing the Neutral
Safety Start Pushbutton. Simple, basic, and no extra alternate wiring is needed. You want the wiring to remain exact-as-original I will advise. Why risk a disaster
having your kid, grand kid, or wife try starting the tractor and not knowing the proper procedure? Never leave the ignition key in the switch either - that is another
Safety precaution. There's a lot more to wiring these N's so get the ESSENTIAL MANUALS along with the related diagrams and learn/know how to do it right.

FORD LATE 8N, 50-52 WIRING 6V/POS GRN:

*YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW THE 6V SYSTEM WORKS BEFORE YOU START MESSING WITH 12V.

8N TRACTOR WIRING PICTOGRAMS, by JMOR, OEM 6V/POS GRN & 12V CONVERSIONS SHOWN:

8N WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR, 6V & THE 12V CONVERSION:

8N w/SIDE MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR USING A 6V COIL, NOTE INLINE 1-OHM RESISTOR:

FORD 8N ANGLE MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR, 50-52:

NOTE: NOTHING CHANGES ON THE DISTRIBUtOR WHEN DOING A CONVERSION EXCEPT THE COIL IF YOU OPT FOR A 12V COIL. BETTER HAVE THE OEM MANAUL TO DO IT RIGHT.


THE FORD 8N ESSENTIAL OWNER/OPERATOR/PARTS/SERVICE MANUALS are required as a FORD OWNER regardless. Besides the OEM 6V POS GRN wiring, all other systems are detailed
as well.

WORDS of WISDOM:

Tim Daley(MI)

 

[used red MN]

Tim, following your words of wisdom please let me respectfully suggest a correction to one of your diagrams that may add to confusion for Wayne if he references it. This is the diagram right above the ceramic resistor. As I posted in my reply for correct ammeter function the connection to the ammeter for power fed from the battery source only has that single circuit, no others.(2 connections one on each end) I believe in this case it was a simple oops when the circuit lines were drawn. The creator simply went to the wrong level when they came across left to right with the horizon portion of the line for the circuit off the alternator. Hopefully my corrected screen shot displays this well enough.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:34:42 04/16/23) Tim, following your words of wisdom please let me respectfully suggest a correction to one of your diagrams that may add to confusion for Wayne if he references it. This is the diagram right above the ceramic resistor. As I posted in my reply for correct ammeter function the connection to the ammeter for power fed from the battery source only has that single circuit, no others.(2 connections one on each end) I believe in this case it was a simple oops when the circuit lines were drawn. The creator simply went to the wrong level when they came across left to right with the horizon portion of the line for the circuit off the alternator. Hopefully my corrected screen shot displays this well enough.
<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto152551.jpg>

No Sir, the creator (me) did not go wrong/make an error/oops. I started making these diagrams at the request of multiple individuals as well as antique tractor parts suppliers as far back as 2008. Some wanted diagrams to match their kit instructions and others for their differing kit instructions and some simple as "Ford was off the assembly line". As a result, I have more than 100 different configurations/diagrams. Now, if a poster asks me personally, I will always respond with the Net reading ammeter version, but when another poster responds, I have no control over which diagram he picked up where. Atlantic for one (sold by multiple vendors) wanted the ammeter to read only alternator output current (that is the one Daley put up that you called wrong). It is a right as any IF that is what the man/company wants, but both you & I have the 'opinion' that Net is correct. Yea for us! That would be one of these diagrams, or if you want a voltmeter (Hobo's preference), got that , too.

 

[used red MN]

J thank you for that explanation of why the circuits are
shown that way. I will stick with my ..opinion.. that
agrees with stock equipment manufacturers that it is a
substandard configuration. It could very well lead you
to believe you have a machine that defies the laws of
physics and can create light energy out of nothing.
Lights on.. no drawn amperes?? Well hopefully Mr.
Smith will be able to wade through all this muckety
muck and figure out how to wire up his Ferd.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 02:07:39 04/17/23) J thank you for that explanation of why the circuits are
shown that way. I will stick with my ..opinion.. that
agrees with stock equipment manufacturers that it is a
substandard configuration. It could very well lead you
to believe you have a machine that defies the laws of
physics and can create light energy out of nothing.
Lights on.. no drawn amperes?? Well hopefully Mr.
Smith will be able to wade through all this muckety
muck and figure out how to wire up his Ferd.

ifferent strokes for different folks, you know. One size never really fits all.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

I'm just the messenger. Simply posted the PICTOGRAMS I have from JMOR. If I were to ever do a 12V switcheroo job, not likely, but I'd use one of his diagrams. Not understanding your I will stick with my opinion, that agrees with stock equipment manufacturers that is a substandard configuration description.


TPD

 

[used red MN]

(quoted from post at 19:06:02 04/17/23) I'm just the messenger. Simply posted the PICTOGRAMS I have from JMOR. If I were to ever do a 12V switcheroo job, not likely, but I'd use one of his diagrams. Not understanding your I will stick with my opinion, that agrees with stock equipment manufacturers that is a substandard configuration description.


TPD

JMOR told me the why so all is good, also explains why his wiring was not on par to what I assumed was standard practice. So no harm no foul. I see your a long timer here so probably a ..died in the wool.. Classic View user. If you momentarily switch to Modern you could use ..Edit.. to delete all of the content of that double posting to leave ..Sorry double post.. It would take up a lot less real estate in the thread then. But Hey, it is your rodeo.

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 08:59:18 04/17/23) You have a problem with DC???

no i don't. i just think you came from a country that speaks another language. imo, there is nothing "essential" about their parts catalog. i have never bought anything from them, and yet my tractor magically works anyway. there is certainly nothing "required" about DC.

 

[H. Wayne Smith]

First of all I would like to thank you all for the responses to my question about moving the connections for the ignition switch.

I may try the change later. I did not mean to start a big argument about the wiring.

I did not properly describe what I had. I used the wiring diagram described by Mr. Gingell's 12 volt conversion to wire my 8N.

Here are the notables: (I hope I do the Gingells justice.)
1-wire alternator (two if you count the ground) that connects to the negative post on the ammeter
Ammeter with a plus and negative posts clearly marked. Again negative post is connected to alternator and positive post has wire from the ignition and one from the solenoid.
3-wire solenoid 1 small post connected to the push-button starter switch, 2 larger posts, one is attached to a bracket that grounds it to the starter motor and one that has the battery cable and wire that connects to the positive post of the ammeter
Ignition switch with one connection to ammeter positive post and one to the terminal block. That wire connects to the position post on the coil.
Terminal block uses only one post. That post has a wire from the ignition and another to the coil's positive post.
Coil has an internal resistor so the original resistor can be disconnected
Ammeter shows the correct amperage reading.

I do not use the lights so their connections were omitted.

There are three notable connection:
1. connection from alternator to negative post of ammeter
2. ammeter replaces some of the terminal block connections
3. terminal block uses only one post

This wiring works good. The tractor cranks great.

The wiring that I described is fairly simple and you may want to comment about something I am missing.

I have tried to properly describe the wiring. If I am wrong, blame me nat the Gingells.

 

[H. Wayne Smith]

I did a little more research on ammeters.
Some ammeters have a + and a - post that is marked. Others have a +L and a +B. Wikilink says that this is non-standard but a lot of manufacturer use it. The +L and +B is totaly confusing since the +L connects to the battery and the +B connects to the alternator.
For the life of me I do not see why it could not be a +B for the battery connection and a +A for the alternator connection. Some playful people just having a little fun, I guess! Also, some wiring diagrams do not show a plus or minus and some show two pluses.
Any thoughts? Are there explanations to all of this that I would like to know.

 

[H. Wayne Smith]

In my ammeter research I did not find an explanation for 30-0-30 in the description. Please let me know what this means.

 

[Jim.ME]

That would be a 30 amp charge or discharge rate ammeter.

0 = no charge or discharge (no current flow)

30 to the right is generally 30 amps of charge flow going towards the battery.

30 to the left is generally 30 amps of discharge flow with power coming from the battery.

I say generally because the ammeter will work either direction if the wires are hooked up backwards on the terminals. Use a voltmeter to verify charging. The markings are a guide and if hooked up backwards, so the ammeter shows discharge when charging, just reverse the wires on the terminals to correct that.

 

[Hobo,NC]

Did someone call my name (voltmeter ) He He...