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By: - 23rd November 2007 at 15:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No full Nimrod AEW survives.
By: - 23rd November 2007 at 17:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Nimrod AEW fleet was reduced to spares in order to provide usefull parts to the rest of the Nimrod fleet. As can be seen from the list of serials below most of the modifications were carried out on the youngest airframes, no doubt with the thought that they would have a long and usefull life in the RAF. There appeared to be little wrong with the airframes but the radar and electronics were not up to the job, although with time and money the problems could have been overcome ? For some time in the 1980's the whole fleet was in storage at RAF Waddington and some aircraft were used as a trials unit, when the programme was cancelled most were ferried to Abingdon and scrapped, XV263 was flow to Finningley and used for electronics trade training.
XV259 Nimrod AEW3 cockpit at Cumbria
XV261 Nimrod AEW3 scr. Lyneham 1995
XV262 Nimrod AEW3 scr. Abingdon 06/1992
XV263 Nimrod AEW3 fuselage at Warton
XZ280 Nimrod AEW3 Scr. Abingdon 04/1992
XZ281 Nimrod AEW3 Scr. Abingdon 1991
XZ282 Nimrod AEW3 Scr. Elgin 03/1996
XZ283 Nimrod AEW3 Scr. Abingdon 1991
XZ285 Nimrod AEW3 Scr. Abingdon 05/1992
XZ286 Nimrod AEW3 Scr. Abingdon 1991, rear section to Kinloss for G.I.
XZ287 Nimrod AEW3 to 9140M fuselage at Stafford, Staffordshire
The above list is from www.ukserials.com
the attached photo were taken at Waddington in 1987
By: - 23rd November 2007 at 20:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
XV259 inside and out pictured at Solway Aviation Museum, Carlisle June 2005
http://www.planepictures.net/netsearch4.cgi?stype=reg&srng=4&srch=xv259&offset=0&range=25
By: - 23rd November 2007 at 23:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great pics.
So what, in peoples' opinions, was the downfall of the AEW3? From the little I know it appeared there were problems with the nose and tail scanners working together, but it must have been pretty serious for the whole project to be cancelled with 11 aircraft complete...
By: - 24th November 2007 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A long-time family friend worked for GEC Marconi in the late 80's and 90's, and from what I've heard him say it seems there were serious problems keeping the equipment cool enough to function properly. The fact that the Nimrod hadn't been designed for all this AEW gear meant that things were crammed in cheek-by-jowl and things were always overheating as a consequence, and even catching fire on a few occasions. The problems ran on and on and still hadn't been solved when the project got the chop.
That's how I've heard it from him anyway.
By: - 24th November 2007 at 00:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fiasco is an understatement on the cancellation of the AEW3 project, while on the face of it the Nimrod was prime candidate for a new AEW system, industry was already very nervous of such a venture, and rightly so, to take what was effectively a 1940’s designed airframe, pack into it all the required equipment and still have room for rolling update programs which are an evil you cannot escape from, hang on too this aging airframe a completely untried, even at that time undersigned radar system and do so at a cost that the nation could afford too justify is the one thing the then Labour government seemed to have avoided somehow considering.
To add to the countries AEW woes, said government then seemed to go down with a dose of collective amnesia as they forgot everything that should have been learned and tried the whole thing over again with the MRA4 project, another farce foisted on the UK voters by a government that sadly seems more content in avoiding the issue at any expense than addressing the real problems one of which is that this country no longer requires such a capability, we have no air force to speak of that could make use of such an incredibly expensive piece of kit, what little we do have is mostly controlled by NATO systems using US equipment, something the UK should have purchased at the time the first ideas of converting the Nimrod fleet were floated.
How the MRA4 farce pans out in total we have yet too see but I do not doubt it will cost the tax payer in excess of a billion pounds to fail yet again leaving one wondering how that money could have been better spent keeping the UK Air Force in better shape than it currently is.
By: - 24th November 2007 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know someone who was deeply involved in the Nimrod AEW, on the electronics side.
His basic synopsis is that they got the radar system working very well, but the Nimrod airframe simply wasn't big enough for the task.
Its small fuselage section meant it was crammed with electrical gear which caused over heating of the equipment and an uncomfortable environment for the crew. Melt down of radar mountings seemed to another problem.
Talking to a Sqn Ldr of the time, also revealed that there were concerns about the Nimrods corrosion problems and it's lack of developement potential, even back then.
The powers in charge probably should have acknowledged these faults, realised that they had already got the best out of the Comet and selected another British (not sure what, as our large aircraft were rear engined?) or European (Airbus?) airframe.
It seems though, that the Radar system worked well in the end and the hurdle of synchronising the two scanners and kit was overcome. My friend reckoned that it was a better system than AWACS (both layout and electronic quality wise), which did have limitations then (does it still?), and certainly was a more aerodynamic layout.
Still, it kept the Shackleton AEW going into the '90s, which I was very pleased about - even if the RAF wasn't!
BTW I would kill for a Nimrod cockpit section like the one shown above!
By: - 24th November 2007 at 13:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Didn't the requirement keep changing?
Heard also that the RAF had their heart set on the Boeing and made the flip flops at GEC jump through hoops on an ever changing requirement, plus I remember some concerns about over land performance of the radar being a bit flakey? RAF saw that as an issue as taking Tornados out on long range over water intercepts was OK, but land ops were a problem? I'm not an expert by any means so can't even state this as fact, just some recollections. As for the comments above of defence projects, I read "lions, donkeys and dinosaurs" a while back, not 100% objective at times but it will make you weep....:(
By: - 24th November 2007 at 14:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IIRC, there is one particularly important part of the Nimrod AEW project that flies regularly. The wingtip pods.
Although the whole project was plagued by two specific problems (more further down) these pods were considered 'worthwhile'. Known as Loreal(?) pods (IIRC after the manufacturer), these RF sensors worked superbly.
Following the announcement of the cancelation of the Nimrod AEW, the pods were removed and latterly placed on the wingtips of the RAF's E3D's. For some considerable time the remaining Nimrod airframes remained at Waddo, viewable from the road, pod-less prior to their eventual demise.
Note: because of their placements on the E3D wingtips, the HF aerials are moved inboard from the tip.
The two problems refered to earlier.
The first has already been mentioned earlier. The Nimrod fuselage was critisised by the RAF at the very initial stages of project discussion as being far too small for the planned missions and future equipment upgrades. This critisism never faltered.
The second was the UK governments own fault. GEC Marconi had managed to obtain an 'open contract' to supply the radar system. 'Open contract' means there is no maximum limit on cost. You won't get that anywhere else, especially nowadays.
The mainframe computer was a second hand design that was running to full capacity even without fully functioning systems. No allowance or space even for upgrades. The radar cooling systems included passing coolant via pipework through the fuel tanks. This meant that the aircraft would only be able to operate for short missions as far more fuel would have to be retained on-board in order to allow the radar system to be cooled, hence short mission times. Good plan, eh? (was reported at least once to have caught fire - on the ground during test). Syncronisation issues between the front and rear scanners took a looonnnngggg time to rectify. The list goes on and on.
BAe did an excellent job with the airframe, and IIRC, within their allocated budget. The GEC Marconi guys at the coalface did an excellent job of trying to make it work. Unfortunately, due to politics and financial greed, it didn't stand a chance.
George Younger MP, the (new) Defence Secretary at the time, was probably the first modern British politician to be standing on safe ground when he announced that a British project, Nimrod AEW, was being scrapped and we were buying American, Boeing E3.
The reason for this was, shortly before his announcement, the media had broadcast a couple of in-depth, investigative programmes lambasting GEC Marconi upper management and informing the public about the costs up to date for no performance capability. Costs at the time were in excess of £1 billion. Remember, this was in the late 1980's.
I seem to remember the GEC Marconi MD was personally interviewed and suffered uncontrolled sweating, fidgitting and redness throughout, whilst being unable to answer simple questions directly. These programmes also left unanswered questions regarding the awarding of an open-ended contract by the government, questions yet to be publicly answered to this day.
The RAF finally got the airframe they wanted. Probably for the first time in recent RAF history, there were no compromises i.e. it cannot be multi-roled, with the exception of medivac.
There is more, much more. But, the rest is history. Maybe another day.
camlobe
By: - 25th November 2007 at 20:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Still scares me f@rtless all our AWACS eggs in one basket. What happens if one goes to the other side. I.E. A Saudi one defects to Iran?? I know there are differing levels of kit, but a lot of the basic comms stuff would be well and truely compromised.
Be lucky
David
By: - 26th November 2007 at 10:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Still scares me f@rtless all our AWACS eggs in one basket. What happens if one goes to the other side. I.E. A Saudi one defects to Iran?? I know there are differing levels of kit, but a lot of the basic comms stuff would be well and truely compromised.
Be lucky
David
That suggests that all the Flight Crew would defect! There are contingency plans in place. It would either not reach its destination or be destroyed after it arrived by a "friendly" aircraft.
By: - 26th November 2007 at 13:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Is there anymore info or pics of the AEWs at Warton (XV263), or Stafford (XZ287)?
By: - 26th November 2007 at 13:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have loads of images of these airframes when they were at RAF Abingdon, including XV263 departing on the last ever AEW3 take off en route to Finningly. I will try to find some time to scan a few and post them on here.
By: - 30th November 2007 at 17:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A very rare airshow appearance, St Mawgan 1986
By: - 2nd December 2007 at 17:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
263 is incorrectly listed as being at Warton, only the cockpit section is located there, the fuslage from frame 14 to the RPB is at the Brough site in support of the MRA4 upgrade programe (fatigue rig for the new wing) - I can upload some pictures of 263 leaving RAF Finningly after being taken apart should anyone be interested as I took quite a few hundred as the jet was dismantled - MJA
By: - 3rd December 2007 at 09:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes please!
By: - 3rd December 2007 at 11:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Weight was a critical feature of all the Nimrods which is why the MRA4 has been wholly reworked.
To save weight on the AEW3 they reskinned the cabin floor with thinner metal and then added a carpet - this was lighter.
Overland the radar was very sensitive and would indeed pick up vehicles etc but then any radar will pick up returns from land and a doppler radar will pick up returns from moving vehicles - it is a question of processing to pick up wanted from unwanted returns. Helicopters overland, flying at vehicle speeds could easily hide.
The E3 of course has a 60s vintage radar whereas the Nimrod was newer and therefore a greater technical risk. Its Cassegrain antena was said to be partof the problem.
By: - 3rd December 2007 at 17:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Didn't the kit from the AEW get flogged off to the Chinese who fitted it to Ilyusion IL76's :confused:
Posts: 894
By: VX927 - 23rd November 2007 at 15:01
Do any of the Nimord AEW3's still survive? If so, what is their overall condition?
Many thanks