SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,694
São Paulo - Brazil
No One Lives Forever 2: A Spy is H.A.R.M.'s Way is a game that I hold very close to my heart. I wish I could celebrate its 20th​ birthday by giving away a free copy here on Era, but the game literally cannot be bought so I'll make this thread instead. And talk about a few points that make this FPS ahead of its time. Or, in the very least, stand out to this day.

If I was to say the biggest difference between NoLF1 and NoLF2, it would that the first is a FPS with stealth elements, while the second is a FPS with immersive sim elements. By that I mean NoLF2 is more open, has a slower pace, better developed stealth mechanics and a bigger emphasis on exploration. Yet it is first of all, like NoLF1, a shooter with great gunplay. And that mix <good gunplay + stealth> didn't use to go well together. The first game was already exceptional in that regard, but the second is even more so because it doubled down on the stealth part. Not only that, this immersive sim-esque approach ended up enhancing the combat. Part of that comes from a "natural" improvement to gunplay, other from more interesting (and hilarious) enemies. But the more important part was the AI system, and a lot can be said about that.

The AI.

If you go to any gaming forum and ask what people think are the best AI in games, it won't take long for someone to mention FEAR. With good reason, FEAR's AI is extraordinary and gives a sense of fighting real adversaries like few games do. But before FEAR there was No One Lives Forever 2, before Replica clones there were the man crates! One of Monolith goals going from the first game to the second was creating an enhanced AI system, and it that they succeed.

There are really two aspects of NoLF2's AI that must be addressed, first is the AI in "default mode", that is, when they are not aware of Cate Archer presence. The other is when they engaged with her, either searching or fighting our beloved operative (I can say our right?).

For the first it's much of the same we see in any and all stealth and stealth oriented games. Basically enemies move around in semi-random patters. Except they go one or two steps further which helps breath a lot of life into the game: they constantly interact with the environment.

Example 1, Example 2.

This may seem a rather small detail, but I believe it's one of those specials details that have a much bigger effect than they should. I remember, which inherently means that I might be misremembering, a video about The Last of Us comparing the pre-release trailer with the final product, we know Naughty Dog likes to… overpromise with their trailers and this one was no different. One of the changes was that in the demo footage one of the enemies would go to a drawer and search it, very much like our protagonists. In the final game that interaction was cut, and the enemy would just stand close to the furniture. In NoLF2 enemies do filing cabinets and search for documents! This is almost some Skynet level AI. But they also (pretend to) fix trucks, write reports, snooze a little, etc. They are not just a enemy that moves around.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMow_f7IJ9Q
Enemies will often run away and get back with reinforcements.

About the second part, I think the AI is excellent but with some blind spots, which are not necessarily bad because of what I mentioned in the first part of this thread. NoLF2, like its predecessor, is first and foremost an FPS, and so being discovered and having to fight your way through is not a problem. If you tried to play it 100% stealth, you'd find it frustrating at a time, but also very rewarding in others. But there is one particular moment in which the game AI shines brightly, and in that moment it's even better than FEAR's, when you're engaged in combat, but not necessarily in a full blown firefight. When enemies are after you, but you're still able to move around in a open-ish map. I remember playing this game for the first time and when that happened, I felt I was playing Counter Strike, and in that moment I knew I would love this game forever. There is a perfect combination of how enemies move around, how they are looking for you rather than knowing where you are, how they react to being shot and spotting you and firing upon you that creates a feeling of playing against human opponents. That same feeling is present in FEAR, or Halo, or other brilliant shooters, but when you add the stealth element it becomes something even grander. Add on top of that cool actions like jumping over rails, rolling around, going prone in the ground and you have something that truly is special. I won't say it has never been surpassed, because we're talking about 20 years and there has been many fantastic shooters, but I will say it is ageless, and impressive to this day.


View: https://youtu.be/2v88u_8KzCw


View: https://youtu.be/VzsXdExMEdI
Two gameplay videos, the first is more about stealth, the second is combat focused. NoLF2 delivers in both cases.

ps: If you want to see how important AI is in a game like this, you don't have to go further than Crysis 2. This is also a FPS with a lot of stealth, and a FPS that does virtually everything right. Except the AI. The AI is atrocious. And that undermines the game completely. If Crysis 2 had an AI on the level of NoLF2 we would be talking about on of the best FPS ever made, instead of a good one that didn't quite up lived to its prequel.

A focus on set pieces:

giphy.gif
giphy.gif


When I mention set pieces I'm thinking it in two terms. First is the one shown in the GIFs. Explosive action packed moments. They were already present in many games in that time, including the first NoLF. The second is well carefully crafted combat scenarios. Half-Life is the emperor of that, but by NoLF2 Monolith was catching up. When FEAR came out in 2005 they would be at VALVE's level (maybe. that might not be possible) but in 2002 that kind of attention was already present. And the best example of that is the last level. I remember in 2010 or so there was some discussion if final bosses were too game-y. Two series come to mind: Mass Effect and Bioshock. Both had games in which their final bosses weren't well received compared to the rest of the game, and so their third installments ended up with a hand-crafted set-piece instead. Which I believe became more and more common in the last 10 years. Monolith had learned that lesson years before.

Skill tree?

I'm not sure if this is worth pointing out or not but I have the distinct impression that in the last 10 years or so skill trees and similar RPG elements became more common in shooters. And NoLF2 did that 20 years ago. Obviously it was drawing inspiration from other games like Deus Ex and System Shock 2, so it wasn't particularly new even then. But having that kind of system without compromising good gunplay? That was new.

A telephone bug shaped like a bug:

giphy.webp


Snowy breath:

giphy.gif


Dust:

giphy.gif

I know you can't see anything, but believe me, it's there! You can check the video if you think it's too revolutionary to be true! Roger Deakins would be proud.

Truly, the game is just ahead of its time by decades.

And that's it, really.

It's such an awful think what happened with this series. Being suck in legal hell, unable to come back. Year and year I keep thinking something gotta happen, but it does not. And it not only hurts because this is a series that is extraordinary, a meaningful part of FPS history and shouldn't be forgotten, but because there is nothing like it out there. For a decade no one barely attempt anything like that. The exception that I found was The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. It also tries to be both a shooter and an immersive sim. In the latter it is even more accomplished than NoLF1 and 2, but it doesn't match their combat excellence. More recently things changed, and people might take for granted that being a stealth game is no reason why you can't have good combat. Deus Ex is an interesting example of how this changed, with only the most recent title really having a gunplay that can match its other parts. Other immersive sim like Prey can also deliver some of the same feelings the NoLF games did.

But they don't have Cate Archer, they don't have the humor, the setting, the identity. What other game you will hear dialogue like these?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox7BG1WHT6g

Or this one. ps: Era doesn't allow me to add more than for "media" links. Can you believe this? It's like having only 7 poll options!

Or phrases like these:

sFAuzBt.jpg


woylNWl.png


e62MeXo.jpg


q7TDFSa.png

The context of this last one is what some soldier says when they get hit!

Maybe next year…

This is such a tragic tale that fans create a site where you can download both games just so someone would take it down due to owning the rights but no one bothered to do so! Can you believe it?!

On a completely different note, if you find yourself luck enough to own the games, make sure to download the modernizer patches: https://haekb.itch.io/nolf-modernizer, https://haekb.itch.io/nolf2-modernizer The second game really needs it.
 
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Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,083
Portugal
Damnit... I started reading the thread title and thought it was about it finally getting out of publisher limbo and getting a nightdive remaster.

É foda mesmo...
 

ASleepingMonkey

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,499
Iowa
Man, there's no GoG version or something? Literally not for sale?

This looks cool af, came out when I was an infant and i would really like to try it.
 

Ruprit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
196
MA
I saw the name and got all excited that it was finally being remastered.

Still have fond memories of it. I don't think I've encountered another game since that has scratched the same itch.

Great thread op.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,694
São Paulo - Brazil
Damnit... I started reading the thread title and thought it was about it finally getting out of publisher limbo and getting a nightdive remaster.

É foda mesmo...
I saw the name and got all excited that it was finally being remastered.

Still have fond memories of it. I don't think I've encountered another game since that has scratched the same itch.

Great thread op.

Sorry about that. One day maybe...

You know what I wonder, what would take for someone to get the rights for the series? Or more precisely, how much would it cost? Cause I'm assuming if enough money in throw into this problem it would be solved.
 

Ruprit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
196
MA
Sorry about that. One day maybe...

You know what I wonder, what would take for someone to get the rights for the series? Or more precisely, how much would it cost? Cause I'm assuming if enough money in throw into this problem it would be solved.

No idea. I just hope it happens one day so that more people can enjoy it. I'm glad to know that Nightdive is still trying.

The first NOLF was the first PC game I owned. Before that my family shared an old computer that was only good enough for word processing. I remember building my first PC with my Dad right before I started high school. Once it got built, I took a trip with my Mom and picked out No One Lives Forever knowing nothing about it apart from the box looking cool. I think I did ok with that one.
 

Justified

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,030
Atlanta
Still have part 1 and 2 on disc. I wonder if I can install them

Oh and Top 5 opening song
 

Rickenslacker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,415
Shame this game is stuck in red tape hell. Just said fuck it and dumped my own iso to have on hand instead.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,694
São Paulo - Brazil
Fantastic game, and truly a pity you can't purchase this through conventional means.

I'm glad I still have my boxed copy (Fry's sticker and all) and an external optical drive.

OP, don't know if you've had a chance to play it, but the VR conversion/mod for NOLF2 is really good and worthy of mention.


View: https://youtu.be/YSXJtZEW8qk?t=171


Alas I have not, on account of not having any VR device. It does look incredible though. I think VR would work very well on this game.

Monolith, get nightdives to remaster these pls. Oh along with condemned 2.

I think Monolith would love that. Alas they most likely have no say on the matter.
 

theSoularian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,295
I love No One Lives Forever, especially NOLF 2. I remember playing the at like 20 fps on my PC at the time haha. Subsequently, it became one of my go to games for whenever I got a new GPU...eventually be able to play the game at smooth frame rate.

Last time I tried to run it (on my new Windows 7 system), it crash my PC and messed my GPU drivers. I couldn't get the game to run higher than 1024x768 res.

It really sucks that game is stuck in some weird legal limbo. It's like no one knows who actually owns the IP.
 

Calvinien

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
2,970
Man, there's no GoG version or something? Literally not for sale?

This looks cool af, came out when I was an infant and i would really like to try it.

IIRC it isn't really clear who owns it. The rights MAY belong to activision, since they bought sierra. But I remember some fuckery where another company could also own the rights and the only way to be sure would be a court case, which neither entity wants for games that most people don't remember.

Hope the ABK merger goes through then bug Phil about it.
 

BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,041
In case anyone is curious why this franchise is a mess in IP ownership, here's a great article about Night Dive trying to get the rights for a remaster:

TL;DR
-Both Games were developed by Monolith; the studio is currently owned by Warner Bros.
-The engine used to make the games LithTech is also owned by Monolith and was used all the way until Shadow of Mordor; the engine is also owned by Warner.
-First Game was published by Fox Interactive; and was then bought by Vivendi (long story short, its under Activision now) BUT all game libraries which were copyrighted by 20th Century Fox are now owned by Disney.
-The 2nd game was published by Vivendi & Sierra (both under Activision).
-When asking around; WB thought that Activision owned the rights. Activision said "maybe we have them but were not sure". Also it turns out WB still held the rights to the trademark and even opposed Night Dive when they tried to apply for the trademark. When they asked Fox, they also thought Activision had the rights after the sale to Vivendi but they also weren't sure if they had some of the rights. 😵‍💫

So its a 3 way IP ownership rumble between:
Warner Bros Interactive [now under WB Discovery] (the engine/trademark but they aren't really sure)
20th Century Fox [now under Disney] (first game rights but they have no idea and wont' search for it)
Activision [soon to be under Microsoft] (publishing rights but they have no idea and wont search for it)

The fact that all 3 companies have gotten or will get bought probably means that this IP will be even further buried in the boxes contracts.
 
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KDash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
Florida
This reminds me that I picked up copies of both games up a little over a year ago. Really need to get around to finishing the first one and starting up the second! I was having fun with it.

It's just a bit awkward to play with my setup as my PC is hooked up to my TV, and I sit on a recliner a few feet away, and my wireless keyboard sometimes gives me problems while I'm using it from the armrests on the chair. Don't know if I can get a decent controller layout for the game considering how many keys it uses.
 

AstralSphere

Member
Feb 10, 2021
9,518
The licensing situation is a mess, but I really don't understand in this era that is absolutely full of 'Not Doom/Duke/whatever' games why we haven't had a Not NOLF game.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,694
São Paulo - Brazil
The licensing situation is a mess, but I really don't understand in this era that is absolutely full of 'Not Doom/Duke/whatever' games why we haven't had a Not NOLF game.

There was this game, but I haven't tried it myself:

store.steampowered.com

Save 80% on The Spy Who Shrunk Me on Steam

THE SPY WHO SHRUNK ME is a stealth game where you are a superspy armed with a shrink ray! Shrink enemies and feed them to paper shredders - or shrink yourself to get past enemies. Sneak in 1980's Moscow and sabotage operations in a stealth game unlike any other.
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,947
Played both but I don't think I've finished either of them. They were such cool shooters, like bursting at the seams with style and personality. It's a shame it's in license limbo.
 

ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,114
I hate that I was never able to get this or the first one working on my PC with a gamepad. I legitimately can't stand mouse and keyboard controls, and I know I'd be miserable trying to play it like that.
 
Mar 5, 2019
566
I played the first game recently and have the second game installed and patched ready to go. I enjoyed the first game but felt that the stealth was rather janky, and ended up quick saving through it. Is the second game that much better in this regard?
 

GenTask

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,679
That was a cool read op. I've never played these games but was always wanted to back in the day. I know there is a "free" version to obtain by googling.

This is one FPS I wish could be rescued and re-released. I would absolutely buy a digital version.
 

wamoss

Member
Aug 11, 2022
1,200
You just reminded me that I never did finish the first game.

Would need to start from the begginning since I played it on my old laptop. Would it be worthwhile just moving onto the 2nd game, or would it be best to go back and finish up the first game before starting the 2nd. Only ask since I don't really wanna redo the entirety of the first one lol
 

Primal Sage

Virtually Real
Member
Nov 27, 2017
10,021
I sold all my big box PC games years ago, including No One Lives Forever sadly. But you better believe I kept the soundtrack CD that came with it. The music in these games is awesome and really captures the 60's mood.

youtu.be

No One Lives Forever - Full Soundtrack from Bonus CD (studio quality)

Composed by Becky Kneubuhl & Rich RagsdaleProduced by Monolith ProductionsZapraszam na moja grupę na Steam - // I invite you to my group on Steam(SneakiestDu...
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,943
If I was to say the biggest difference between NoLF1 and NoLF2, it would that the first is a FPS with stealth elements, while the second is a FPS with immersive sim elements. By that I mean NoLF2 is more open, has a slower pace, better developed stealth mechanics and a bigger emphasis on exploration.

I loved the second game but have tried multiple times now to play through the first game and have never managed to get too far. I've never really been able to figure out why besides "oh I guess it's older," but this might be the first time someone's been able to articulate for me why that might be the case beyond just age.

Though I will say that I always found it creepy how everyone's eyes in NOLF1 remained pointed straight forward because the tech to make movable eyeballs in cutscenes wasn't really available until NOLF2. Honestly that might be half of it right there.
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
3,910
You know what I wonder, what would take for someone to get the rights for the series? Or more precisely, how much would it cost? Cause I'm assuming if enough money in throw into this problem it would be solved.

The easiest course of action would be to just rerelease the game and wait for whoever decides to sue/C&D the release.
 

Mxlegend99

Member
May 20, 2018
561
Absolutely loved both of these games when I was in high school. Would love to see these games remastered.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,943
The easiest course of action would be to just rerelease the game and wait for whoever decides to sue/C&D the release.

No one is going to put that amount of money on the line just so they can see who comes out of the woodwork to sue them and win.

Night Dive already did something close to this when they filed for the trademark rights in preparation for potential work on a re-release, alongside talking to the parties they thought might have rights to the franchise, but it didn't work out. If anyone was in a position to pursue this course of action further, it would've been Night Dive.
 

naitosan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
562
There's a website with three games, NOLF, NOLF2 and Contract Jack, available for download, just google "nolfrevival". They come with latest patches plus more. It has been around for years and seems no one has tried to take it down. That's pretty telling since no one knows who owns the rights to those games.

If mods feel this post isn't appropriate, feel free to delete it.
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,428
The licensing situation is a mess, but I really don't understand in this era that is absolutely full of 'Not Doom/Duke/whatever' games why we haven't had a Not NOLF game.
I think capturing what makes NOLF special is pretty hard - it's not one thing at all, as the OP outlines. I'd welcome a stab at it, but there's just a lot of intangibles
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,694
São Paulo - Brazil
I played the first game recently and have the second game installed and patched ready to go. I enjoyed the first game but felt that the stealth was rather janky, and ended up quick saving through it. Is the second game that much better in this regard?

Yes. Stealth was one of the things that were improved in NoLF2. You can lean around corners, carry bodies, hide in dark places and the AI is greatly improved.

You just reminded me that I never did finish the first game.

Would need to start from the begginning since I played it on my old laptop. Would it be worthwhile just moving onto the 2nd game, or would it be best to go back and finish up the first game before starting the 2nd. Only ask since I don't really wanna redo the entirety of the first one lol

I'd play the first one again first. NoLF2 is a little more special to me but NoLF1 is incredible as well. And there are some ways in they are very different yet equally great. I actually made this thread about it.
 

Callibretto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,555
Indonesia
Man I remember loving this game. Is there any other game since then that have similar setting, gameplay etc? Feels like a pretty unique game even for today standard. I wish we get some spiritual succesor or just homage to this game.
 
OP
OP
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,694
São Paulo - Brazil
Man I remember loving this game. Is there any other game since then that have similar setting, gameplay etc? Feels like a pretty unique game even for today standard. I wish we get some spiritual succesor or just homage to this game.

There is not.

XIII is a game that I forgot to mention in the OP, it was released in 2003 at its quite similar to NoLF1 gameplay, and Riddick (and its sequel) with NoLF2. But I don't think neither one quite captures that gameplay excellence, plus the tone is quite different. Wolfenstein: The New Order, which are made by the Riddick guys, also share similarities with NoLF1 in terms of mixing good gunplay with stealth.

More recently with stealth/immersive sim games having good combat it becomes more natural to find games like that, but we are simply talking about gameplay here, not tone, setting, humor and most importantly, Cate Archer!
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,932
Germany
Both NOLF games are great but the second one was really mind blowing at the time. This series deserved so much better. It being in rights limbo is such a tragedy.
 

Danim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
456
Fantastic games, an absolute crime that they still aren't available on any modern storefronts.
 

erlim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,536
London
imagine if WB games knew what kind of things they owned. I think Nightdive is consummately ready to go on a remaster.
 

Ostron

Member
Mar 23, 2019
1,978
NOLF is a huge blindspot for me. I played a pirated pre-installed version back in the day where the mouse look was all kinds of fucked up, too young to fix ut at the time and just dropped it. Also kind of remember the tutorial being a slog? Maybe that was 2.

Then I played the NOLF2 demo and was literally blown away, but I never got the full game. I adore FEAR and I'm sure NOLF would be a fun time.

This would be eligible for that NVIDIA remix magic no?
 

rudeboyoslo

Member
Jan 5, 2018
1,052
I moved house recently and got rid/gave away tons of old games and other stuff. Here are the two games I kept, even though I have no way of playing them:

52397001145_bf2ce2f783_b.jpg


Also I'm playing Deathloop these days and it gives me major NOLF vibes.
 

Rob's Zombie

Member
Sep 28, 2022
1,649
Manchester, UK
Ioved both NOLF and NOLF2 although had to wait after both released as my PC was very outdated and would barely run the first game with settings toned down somewhat.

I always found the engine used in these games along with AVP2, Lithtech I think, to be very system demanding. F.E.A.R. was the same but was on a different although just as demanding engine. Monolith really knew how to push PC tech back in the early 00's.
 

wafflebrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,524
Experiencing these two games at release is probably the most memorable and fun time I've had with fps campaigns. The humor and VA was so on point, there was nothing else like it (and still isn't really), Archer's VA was brilliant, the overheard guard convos were always funny, and playing with all the gadgets was a joy. The sequel did everything better, and the stealth and AI was so good. I hate that I lost my original discs, really want to play the sequel again with the VR mod.

Maybe one day this true gem of an IP will escape ownership rights purgatory and we'll get to see some re-releases/remasters, and maybe even a worthy followup.