Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Welcome to where PC gaming dominance truly began!

Where ISA/MCA/PCI/AGP had freed us from rigid one size fits all PCs at the cost of lots of money and strange forward, backward, and side compatibility. Where there are 5+ companies pumping out CPUs and they all fit in the same socket. Truly a magical land where you'd buy a new PC and it'd be not just old, but potentially obsolete in just 6 months time.

While there are lots of ways you can break down the eras of DOS, the way I saw it growing up is how I'll list it here. This is by no means comprehensive, pure DOS had a good decade and win9x nearly as long and the technology changed fast.


CGA:
4 color goodness that dominated the mid to late 80's.

Alleycat.png


Castle_master-cga.png


Though with some clever usage of composite signal's faults, a psuedo "16" color mode can be achieved.

boot_005.png


On a proper composite monitor, the resolution 'halves' and the overlapping lines create extra colors.

There was also tandy color which offered true 16 color.


simcity_005.png


EGA is very similar to this mode and also uses 16 colors, though the palette and format are a bit different.

VGA:

8-bit color hit DOS in the final year of the 80's and was the predominant mode throughout the remainder of the pre-win95. VGA was a game changer.

qfgega-compare2.png


Became


qfgvga-compare2.png


DOOM:

Then comes Doom. Doom was the Crysis of it's day. True, Wolfenstien existed before it, but it was Doom that captured the imaginations of every PC, and non-PC owner. If you didn't have a PC, you bought one that you made sure could at least run it. While you could get the game running on the minimum 386 and VGA card, you really wanted a 486DX2 and everyone was eyeing the upcoming DX4 hungrily to really push the game full screen and as smoothly as possible.


D3.png



DOS during the age of Windows:

DOS hung around as a gaming platform for a number of years even after windows 95. There are even 3D accelerated games for DOS using a voodoo/3DFX card. Games like Nascar Racing 2

nascar-racing-2_9.png


(FAKE EDIT)

Over the course of waiting 2 weeks to get my 486 system up and running, I ended up with something a little beyond what I was expecting, and thus I'm extending this thread to include windows 9x gaming!

Windows 9x, 3DFX, and of course Direct X:

The reason I didn't intend on including this is because it opens up a whole new can of worms. Between windows 95 and 98, you actually cover all of DirectX gaming from 1.0 to 9.0c! For the sake of not filling this thread up with games that are only 10 years old, let's try and stick to DX8 and earlier!

This could literally fill an entire thread all it's own (and if someone ever wants to make a OT for Win9x, I'll gladly condense this back down to only being dos)

starcraft-brood-war.jpg


6_1.jpg


Team_Fortress_Classic_original_models.jpg






"Okay you convinced me! DOS and early Windows gaming looks great! How do I start today?"

The simplest way is to purchase these games on GOG. They come prepackaged with a preconfigured DosBox so they are as simple to run today as any other modern program and still configurable if you want to do some deep down dirty tweaking or if you want to try different graphics/audio modes.
The next simplest way would be to buy and/or dump your old games with an appropriate USB floppy disk or CD reader.
After that, we get in to the dark and dangerous world of real™ hardware. Real hardware can be a pretty scary rabbit hole. Early DOS machines will be unable to play many of the later games that require 386+ processors and a VGA card. Meanwhile, later machines (pentium and later especially, but even 486 at times) will run into problems with extended memory or the system simply being too fast or having too much cache leading to unplayably fast games. There ARE solutions to this with software like slomo and Throttle... but their compatibility can be hit or miss as well.

Much of the hardware is now also getting into 2-3 decades old. Power supplies and CMOS batteries are disintegrating and often taking their whole system with them. Worse yet, so many people viewed early computers as worthless that they threw them away or recycled them so finding an ideal system is starting to get expensive.
That said, if you are dead set on real hardware, I honestly recommend starting on laptops. Unlike full PCs, their power supplies are external and far less likely to have permanently damaged the system. There are down sides however since they are far less customizable and it's actually pretty rare to find a sound card in 486 and earlier machines. You also don't likely want one earlier than that as the screens are pretty terrible. Though more recently there are external sound cards that work for most games that use the printer port.

In general, it's still better to aim a little newer than a little older, and you might luck out and get a Pentium 1 or 2 laptop with a USB port, which will give you an easier way to transfer data than floppy or CD.

LGR has a decent video on the basics on choosing a dos machine.


Other Resources:
10 Greatest DOS games of all time
50 underappreciated DOS games
List of DOS commands
FreeDOS - MS and PC DOS replacement
THROTTLE - One of several tools useful for slowing your PC to play stubborn dos games.
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Not going to lie, this entire thread was from a huge nostalgic urge of mine this last month... I've been trying in vein to find an era-appropriate PC and I've had almost no luck at a reasonable price. I got a 120mhz laptop that I thought would be perfect! But it had some motherboard issues... so the search continued for another 2 weeks.
I finally got ahold of a computer, but it's higher end than I initially wanted, but so far it's doing alright, in fact better than alright and I'd recommend anyone looking to get into a DOS/early windows machine to look for one similar.

The processor is on the high end for what I wanted (266mhz pentium MMX), but it comes with a single USB 1.1 port that has made my life so so SO much easier. From keyboards, to wireless mice, to USB mass storage (a 16GB USB stick has been overkill, but very welcome for transferring data back and forth and even installing Windows 98 from).

qppzSgD.jpg

I found an apple imac g3 keyboard for $8, and I've been using that as both a keyboard and a USB hub. A cheap logitech wireless mouse I got at walmart (which says only windows 7 and later, but windows 98 detected it and it works fine) and a $10 dell 1280x1024 monitor completes this mix-mash system. Coupled with the laptop I got for $50 and I have a fully working classic PC gaming rig for $100 with some very nice modern conviences.
Seriously, that single USB 1.1 port has made this 'build' so much more convenient. I was able to replace Windows XP (the previous owner was crazy using XP on a 266mhz pentium 1) with windows 98 without having to burn a disk or worry if the CD drive would crap out since it's a 2 decade old machine.

We just got it mostly finished being setup after hunting hunting down windows 98 drivers for everything. I played a bit of Tyrian before my daughter, who'd been hovering over me for the last week as I got it all working, begged for a turn.

ZYNsN23.jpg


She's been playing for close to an hour now. Proof that a good game is good no matter the age and you also don't have to 'convince' a kid to play old games.
Next on the list after the kids are in bed are some classic CRPGS, think I'll finally take the time to beat the entire Quest for Glory series... something I still haven't done to this day.

abnkTV2.jpg


Oh no you guys, my daughters found Doom! Are they going to turn into psycho murderers now!?
 

dyslex666

Member
Nov 1, 2017
93
I've got a Pentium 4 with 384MB of RAM and a TNT2 running Windows 98 SE. It's my go-to for Win9x gaming and it's god-tier. Microsoft Plus! Themes is a must, especially the Mystery Library one.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
I need to get around to replacing the caps on a couple of cheap socket 370 boards I bought and build a true dos/win9x machine.
Thought my restomodded pentium 4 3.0 ghz laptop I've had from childhood would do the job but that thing really doesn't work with windows 98.
 

whiteninja

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,794
Of all the dos games I played back in the 90s I think Privateer takes the crown for me. Countless hours spent well into he night playing this even on school nights.
I would have trouble getting it to work with my Windows ME pc so I eventually put it away for years until I discovered dosbox.
I could never get the mouse to function when I played it originally in dos so playing the game with a mouse was like a completely new experience.

(Whoever's playing it in this vid is bad, even the first time I booted this up I wasnt that bad)
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
486SX actually ran Doom like a beast. The floating point coprocessor of the DX is unused by Doom.

Tandy graphics are awesome and I own a real Tandy 1000HX along with a Pentium 100.

FPGA systems like MiSTer are going to do a lot for the scene, I suspect. There's already a 486 core for MiSTer, not sure what graphics are supported.

 

Talus

Banned
Dec 9, 2017
1,386
I had a Tandy 1000 RSX. It came with Deskmate and MS-DOS 5.0. 25mhz 80386 CPU with 106MB harddrive and 1MB of RAM.

Playing Qbasic games like Gorillas. Games like Scorched Earth, Alley Cat, Chopper Commando and Wolfenstein 3D.

Those were the days :)
 

gagewood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,211
This video from a few days ago made me smile.



I have most of the PC Gamer demo discs from mid 1997 - early 2000. Wish I hadn't recycled the PC Gamer magazine issues, though. That was such an exciting time to watch PC gaming evolve so rapidly.


I made a thread earlier this summer for a video showcasing many DOS game intros. Huge nostalgia trip.

 

Ifrit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,122
I still need to beat Realms of Chaos, Biomenace, the Commander Keen series and Stargunner.

Someday I'll do it
 
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bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,905
Those were the days.

When you would spend 5 hours as an elementary school kid reading a PC manual trying to figure out how to edit the config.sys to get the sound to play on your game.

That feeling though once you got it to work...
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,410
It's funny I got into 8 bit guy and LGR recently and looked up the laptops that they bought and I guess because of their videos and the resurgence of PC retro, all those computers are like at least 4 times the price that they were only a few years ago.
 
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Inugami

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
It's funny I got into 8 bit guy and LGR recently and looked up the laptops that they bought and I guess because of their videos and the resurgence of PC retro, all those computers are like at least 4 times the price that they were only a few years ago.

I got mine for $50 on eBay, though admittedly it's not in the greatest shape. Try to worry less about brands or recommended "ideal" systems and just look for specs you're interested in.

For example, mine is a HiNote Digital laptop. A brand I didn't even know about beforehand.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,410
I got mine for $50 on eBay, though admittedly it's not in the greatest shape. Try to worry less about brands or recommended "ideal" systems and just look for specs you're interested in.

For example, mine is a HiNote Digital laptop. A brand I didn't even know about beforehand.
Ah that might be it. I was looking at those old Compaq and Thinkpads that are basically the DOS gaming equivalents of the NES I suppose.
 

Arcticfox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
344
I have been watching LGR and AkBKukU videos on YouTube for the past few months and they have been tempting me to get back into classic gaming. I have so many great memories of early PC games and it just isn't the same playing them on modern systems. I want to build both a 486 for early 90's games such as Master of Orion, SimCity and Privateer, as well as a Windows 98 box with a 3dfx graphics cards for late 90's games.

I haven't gotten to the point of speccing anything out yet, but I will be following this thread to see if anyone has any experience or recommendations for finding good quality classic hardware.
 

doctorcdcs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
433
Love it when these threads pop up.

Just want to give a heads up that there's someone who does actually Twitch stream using OG hardware and all:

https://www.twitch.tv/glitterprince2000

He streams Fallout 2 quite a bit, but does play other older win9x titles. He's streaming Tropico right now, and he's got a cam on the rigs he uses. It's great.
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
I have been watching LGR and AkBKukU videos on YouTube for the past few months and they have been tempting me to get back into classic gaming.

Not going to lie, this is what pushed me over the edge as well.


Finally started to play Quest for Glory VGA. I'm indecisive and can never settle on one of the three default specs, so I made a thief with magic ability. I forgot just how quickly you end up rolling in cash if you pick thief.

Cleaned out the town of quests and robbable homes and did the healer quest. Now the grind ( which I'm actually enjoying. Love RPGs where you level skills by actually using them ).
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
m3CATdN.jpg


Quest for Glory 1 complete! I actually have never played 2 or 3 so this'll be completely blind. When I was younger, the text parser of the ega titles really confounded me, we'll see if adult me can handle it better.
 

gagewood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,211
DOS Nostalgia hasn't been putting out much content this year, but he posted this today. Yup, that's what installing DOS games from floppies was like. :)



He also has a great series of videos showcasing DOS games by year.

 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
I haven't had much chance to play with my DOS machine (just a bit of Carmen San Diego and Epic Pinball has been about all the time I've had for) but in the mean time I figured I'd detail a bit of what I had to do to get my system up and running.

My laptop came in with Windows XP installed on it. Needless to say, XP was a terrible choice for a Pentium 1 processor even if the system had a beefy 112MB of ram (a 64MB stick, 32MB stick, and 16MB built into the mobo). Besides XP being a poor match (keeping in mind, the system comes with a Windows95 sticker on it), XP lacks true DOS and therefore was completely unsuitable for what I wanted from the system. That said, I've been CD drive-less for ages and thus had no immediate way to burn any sort of medium. I did buy a USB floppy drive and some 1.44MB diskettes in preparation for an older system so I did have that at least. The problem is that DOS lacks any sort of native USB drivers!

Luckily, I did find a solution here. Luckily, there was enough spare room on a windows 98 backup diskette for the drivers and to modify the config.sys to boot to a dos prompt with USB support. I was really afraid it wouldn't work since the laptop is so old, it only has a USB 1.0 port (yes, not even 1.1). Surprisingly it worked first try and I was able to install windows 98 without issue... Till it restarted and asked for the 98 disc to install drivers. Whoopsie. Restarted with the boot disk again, copied the win98 files to the hard drive and restarted and pointed Win98 to those and it finally was go!

Finally one last thing, windows 98 comes with USB drivers, but nothing for mass storage! So while my keyboard, mouse, and the associated hub installed and worked without issue, the USB memory card I used to install windows 98 didn't work. Luckily, there are generic drivers that work on 98 that I found here.

About the only thing I still haven't gotten working is to get USB keyboard and mouse to work in full dos. As of right now, if I want to play dos games, I have to play them in windows. So far this hasn't been a serious issue. Lemmings absolutely hates dos-in-windows, but most of my favorite games haven't had an issue. The thing is, I have dos drivers that SHOULD work for them, but it's having, what it says, are IRQ conflict issues even though there shouldn't be any. I have a feeling, this has more to do with the fact that the USB is 1.0 and these drivers seem to have been written for 1.1 and 2.0 in 1.1 compatibility mode (may need to just get a PCMCIA USB card).

Anyways, long ranty story about how fiddly old computers are, but maybe this'll help someone out down the road who needs to get USB working on their ancient system.
 

hlhbk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,127
Thread of the year confirmed. It's over boys! One of the greatest eras of gaming that led me to my career in IT.
 

Ayirek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,270
This thread makes me happy. Thank you, OP <3

My next retro present to myself is a Windows 95/98 PC with which I'll do ALL of the DOS gaming! LGR is one of my absolute favorites. Daggerfall is still the deepest Elder Scrolls game, and perhaps the best dungeon crawler ever (even though Morrowind is the better game overall). Sure, lots of the 'essential' DOS games are ported and playable on modern systems, as with console gaming there is just something special about playing on authentic hardware.
 

XaosWolf

One Winged Slayer - Powered by Friendship™
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,975
This reminds me that I need to get a floppy drive in my PC. I have a whole bunch of disks and I have no idea whats on them any more.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,102
Halifax, NS
I'm a big proponent of the "time machine" style build, using a AMD K6-3+ and using SetMul to enable/disable cache and changing clock speed to get the widest compatibility. Outside of some of the real speed dependent stuff (Wing Commander, Ultima 6, anything that wants no more than an 8088), it plays everything up until the late 90s pretty well.
 

basic_text

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,072
Derby, UK
Unfortunately I missed the 'pure' DOS days and instead ended up joining in around the time of the P75 & Windows 95.

Having said that, my uncle had an old 286 that introduced me to pc gaming, I believe my first 2 games I played were:

Jill of the Jungle
Mod-Jill_of_the_Jungle.png


The Omnicron Conspiracy
omnicron-conspiracy_10.png


I don't know if 'fond' is the correct word but I have many a memory of dicking around with the autoexec.bat just to get FIFA 97 running.
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Oh man... I forgot what a chore gaming on windows 98 can be. Taken a break from DOS to play the Win95 version of Command and Conquer... except it requires direct X installed... which requires .Net Framework installed... which requires windows installer 3.0 installed... which requires Visual Basic installed. This was somewhat mitigated back in the day with some of them auto downloading. Of course those links are long dead and some are quite difficult to find (looking at you .net framework 2.0 and not 2.0 SP1!).

At about the 90 minute mark for installs and that's just so far. At least this should cover nearly all of this until the next time I have to reinstall everything.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
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Oct 22, 2018
13,623
That's surprising. I don't think I'd ever encountered a situation where I'd need to install directx and it wasn't already on the game disc somewhere.
 

capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
Of all the dos games I played back in the 90s I think Privateer takes the crown for me. Countless hours spent well into he night playing this even on school nights.
I would have trouble getting it to work with my Windows ME pc so I eventually put it away for years until I discovered dosbox.
I could never get the mouse to function when I played it originally in dos so playing the game with a mouse was like a completely new experience.

(Whoever's playing it in this vid is bad, even the first time I booted this up I wasnt that bad)


There's actually a remake that is old as hell that runs natively on Windows.
http://privateer.sourceforge.net
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
That's surprising. I don't think I'd ever encountered a situation where I'd need to install directx and it wasn't already on the game disc somewhere.

It's the version EA released a few years ago for free when they were promoting one of the newer C&C games no one ever played.

Effectively, I have to 'backport' the changes they made to make it work on modern OS so that it works again on win98. Fun times.
 

Deleted member 48897

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Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Ah! I tried doing something similar with Blizzard's release of DOS Blackthorne, but EMS mode turns out to be a motherfucker when you don't have native DOS drivers
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Ah! I tried doing something similar with Blizzard's release of DOS Blackthorne, but EMS mode turns out to be a motherfucker when you don't have native DOS drivers
Yeah, I tried with their version of The Lost Vikings and I keep getting a copy protection error... haven't delved too deep in it though.

For what it's worth, I did get that version of C&C finally working, not sure I'll try and deal with Red Alert right now, at least not till I finish one of the base game's campaigns.
 

Shaneus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,929
Ah, this thread gives me life! Here's the setup I grew up with (not my photo):
qJu1GrSl.jpg

Amstrad PC1640 with ECD monitor (640x350 EGA I think?) and 20MB HDD

AdLib soundcard:
X5wP9K1m.jpg


Later upgraded to this (but still had that sweet, sweet OPL2 flavour):
DJ4qr9Xl.jpg


I still have this gamepack kicking around too, I think it was Australia-only:
d6t36Vym.jpg


Mad respect for people still managing to keep old PC hardware around and running. I kinda wish we still had the Amstrad, but the entire PC's power supply was in the monitor, so once that went (we had to replace the monitor several times) it was hard to justify keeping the PC itself around :(

PS. Here's my two favourite OPL2/AdLib tunes for you people to rock out to:

 
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j^aws

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,569
UK
Other Resources:
10 Greatest DOS games of all time
50 underappreciated DOS games
List of DOS commands
FreeDOS - MS and PC DOS replacement
THROTTLE - One of several tools useful for slowing your PC to play stubborn dos games.

I'd also add: https://www.vogons.org/index.php

The above is probably the best resource that I've encountered for classic PC hardware. I've various projects on the go inspired from there.

Regarding slowdown tools like THROTTLE, they can get the job done but aren't perfect; they can show graphical artefacts on certain programs like old demoscene productions. Hardware slowdown from real working Turbo switches, or suitable CPUs manipulated with Setmul (Socket 7 AMD K6s, Intel Pentiums or Socket 370/ Slot 1 VIA C3s) are more compatible.
 
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Inugami

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Oh god... how did I not know this was leaked a couple years back? I can remember looking at the coverage for years and wanting to play it, even long after I heard it was canceled for quality reasons.

RcMrwru.jpg


Yeah I have my expectations tempered and prepared for the worst, but it really doesn't matter. Just need to play a long lost alpha of Starcraft Ghosts and I'll has satisfied my childhood blizzard dream team.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,534
Great thread OP! This is my favorite era of classic gaming. There are so many amazing games that came out during this time.

Amazing work and I laughed at the pics of the kids playing old PC classics!
 

AaronMT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,626
Toronto
On the topic of Windows 10 front-ends (w/DosBox) has anyone setup a playlist in RetroArch with box art? Wondering if that's even possible.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,555
It's funny I got into 8 bit guy and LGR recently and looked up the laptops that they bought and I guess because of their videos and the resurgence of PC retro, all those computers are like at least 4 times the price that they were only a few years ago.
I know that feeling. I have like 20 vintage laptops right now of varying abilities and skills. I get a lot of joy bringing them back from garbage states to Windows 98 Second Edition dos gaming machines.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,410
I know that feeling. I have like 20 vintage laptops right now of varying abilities and skills. I get a lot of joy bringing them back from garbage states to Windows 98 Second Edition dos gaming machines.
It sounds like a fun hobby. Just so expensive now. lol

I'm also waiting for a PC manufacturer to make a "PC Classic" to cash in on the NES/Sony stuff. :p
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,555
It sounds like a fun hobby. Just so expensive now. lol

I'm also waiting for a PC manufacturer to make a "PC Classic" to cash in on the NES/Sony stuff. :p
I pick them up for 10-20 bucks each at the flea market. Nobody wants em there. I have like 25 broken ones. I either sel them to others if the screens are good or take the working parts from them if any besides screens
 

doctorcdcs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
433
I've been working on restoring a Pentium 166 to working order i bought from a store for $30, but the HDD that came with it has bad sectors so I gotta dump that and find an alternative to it (looking at swapping it out for CF or USB as an alternative). I'd like to get a 3dfx voodoo card for it, but those are so expensive now.

I've also partially fixed up my old Pentium 4 machine as well. I'm hoping to have the 133 as a dos/win 95 machine, and the P4 as a XP machine to handle games that are suited for that era. Fun times ahead!
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,555
I've been working on restoring a Pentium 166 to working order i bought from a store for $30, but the HDD that came with it has bad sectors so I gotta dump that and find an alternative to it (looking at swapping it out for CF or USB as an alternative). I'd like to get a 3dfx voodoo card for it, but those are so expensive now.

I've also partially fixed up my old Pentium 4 machine as well. I'm hoping to have the 133 as a dos/win 95 machine, and the P4 as a XP machine to handle games that are suited for that era. Fun times ahead!
Is that a Sonny Bonds avatar? The Police Quest games were the weakest mechanically of all the Sierra adventure games to me, but still really good. Or perhaps I hate the fact that these were the most reliant on the manuals for the police code of conduct.
 
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Inugami

Inugami

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Oct 25, 2017
14,995
GRrNIGS.jpg


Took a small hiatus from old school PC stuff, but feeling in the mood again. Still not content with my nostalgia laptop, though it's doing well enough. That said, this newest piece of hardware isn't TECHNICALLY computer related... but I found this at a goodwill and I knew I had to get it.

This was clearly designed to sit on top of an old horizontal layout PC, BUT underneath the monitor. Besides being a surge protector, the entire thing is on a rotating base, meaning you could spin around your PC monitor around on it!

Despite the $5.99 goodwill sticker on it, I guess I came in on one of their purple tag sales, and snagged it for about $3. Not sure I'd trust this 30 year old beast to actually work purely as a surge protector, but it still works great as an electric switch box.

That said, my nostalgia laptop (seen below it) doesn't match the color, nor does my early 00's 5:4 LCD monitor I have on top of it... which is only furthering my intense desire to find and build an actual pentium 1 or 2 era desktop for all my 9X era desires.

Besides aesthetics, I really want to get a system setup with a SB Pro 2.0, because this laptop's Crystal Audio is just not doing it for me the more I hear it. It doesn't do too awful for Win9x games, but it's clear it's just emulating the OPL chip in dos titles and it really ruins a lot of old games (Tyrian 2000 especially, somehow Epic Pinball fairs a lot better, but still not perfect).