RE: MG ZT V8 | The Brave Pill

RE: MG ZT V8 | The Brave Pill

Saturday 26th September 2020

MG ZT V8 | The Brave Pill

Normal service has been resumed with an enticingly priced V8 saloon



After last week's not entirely successful attempt to persuade the sceptical that a leggy Honda S2000 can be regarded as being brave, we're heading back to scarier territory. Frankenstein's monster gets cited far too often in stories about cars which have undergone radical surgery, but here's one that really did have a heart transplant - and a factory-fitted one at that.

The 'noughties was the era of the unlikely V8. Manufacturers vied with each other to fit upsized powerplants into smaller cars, with the best-remembered examples of the genre being a trio of Germans - the E90/ E92 BMW M3, W204 Mercedes C63 AMG and B7 Audi RS4. But while all were fine cars, they all got scooped by a plucky British underdog, the equally eight-cylindered MG ZT 260 beating them to market by several years.

These days it is hard to remember MG Rover without thinking of the self-serving incompetence of the Phoenix consortium that led it. Yet, following its hasty divorce from BMW in 2000, the newly-independent British carmaker actually enjoyed a couple of years of good press. BMW's enthusiasm to offload its subsidiary had seen it leave MG Rover with both a sizeable divorce settlement and the still-fresh Rover 75, with the new company's first challenge the considerable one of moving production of its newest car from Cowley (which BMW kept to build Minis) to Longbridge.


But almost equally pressing was the question of how to improve the brand's profile and desirability. The 75 had received a mixed critical response when launched, and the 25 and 45 were starting to look dull and dreary - cars for those who found the idea of a Honda Jazz a bit too thrilling. The clue for the exciting new direction was already in the new company's name, with the plan soon hatched to create punchier MG versions of the 25, 45 and 75 - the ZR, ZS and ZT - to be sold alongside the existing MG TF sportscar.

The ZR was a decent warm-to-hot hatchback more than capable of playing showroom tag with Saxo VTS and VTRs. The ZS looked good in saloon form, with the range-topping 180 version having an impressive turn of speed and a zingy character. But it was the ZT that impressed most thanks to to the combination of sportified version of the 75's already fine chassis, the looks-boosting loss of the Rover's tinselly chromework, plus a spacious, modern-feeling cabin.

The ZT's problem came under its bonnet. Prior to the demerger plans had been advancing to move the existing Rover models onto BMW's 'Valvetronic' petrol engines, but that was lost in the break-up beyond a deal to allow the 75 and ZT to continue to use BMW's M47 diesel. Meaning the petrol ZT had to use the not exactly muscular K-Series V6 from the 75, with the exclusive option of front-wheel drive. The motor was tweaked and tuned to make 187hp for the range-topper and given a raspy exhaust, but that still didn't translate into the sort of performance that early 'noughties sports saloon buyers expected - a 7.7-second 0-62mph time for the range-topping version was pretty meh, and the auto was nearly a second slower over the benchmark.


MGR chose what now looks like a ridiculous (if awesome) way to improve on that: the cost and complication of creating a new rear-drive version with V8 power. In engineering terms this was a proper triumph of British ingenuity, with Prodrive adapting the 75's natively transverse engined floorpan to accept both a substantial transmission tunnel and a bought-in Ford V8 under the bonnet. The total project budget was just £30m, something the bigger players could easily spend on creating a new heating and ventilation system.

The new engine wasn't big on sophistication. This was the 4.6-litre 16-valve single camshaft motor as used in the contemporary Mustang, lightly tuned by Roush but still only producing a modest 256hp at 5000rpm, although accompanying this with a solid 302lb-ft of torque. The new rear axle used Holden-sourced halfshafts and gained two extra dampers to fight tramp. But the cleverest bit of engineering was making the ZT260 so it could be built alongside its front-drive sister on the same line.

The driving experience was big on fun and short on sophistication. The engine sounded properly V8-y, exhaling through quad exhausts and with both a bubba-bubba idle and proper snarl when used hard. The standard five-speed Tremec manual gearbox was notchy and had a long throw, but steering was great and the throttle response zingy. Performance was rapid rather than searing, the big motor happiest in its muscular mid-range than chasing its lowish 6,000rpm redline. Firm springs and dampers made ride quality marginal over rougher surfaces, but the RWD ZT seemed to enjoy being driven hard and was happy to play the hoon.


Not that Longbridge's production staff were exactly run off their feet by the need to wrestle V8s about when the 260 launched in 2003. A £27,995 starting price represented a chunky (but not outrageous) supplement over the front-driven 190, but it put the most muscular ZT into direct competition with upmarket alternatives like the E46 BMW 330i. Even the prospect of more cylinders and a snarlier soundtrack couldn't sway many buyers. When MG Rover collapsed in 2006 it emerged that the company had bought a thousand V8 engines; more than 400 of them remained unused when the company failed.

MGR's bankruptcy ended support for the cars that had already been built and pretty much drove residuals off a cliff, especially as the the liquidators sold some undelivered examples for firesale prices. Yet prices have strengthened in recent years as people have realised both how special the 260 is, especially for those looking for a proper Q-car. Beyond small V8 badges on the front wings, the quad exhausts and a bigger wing it is externally identical to the front-driver. These days it has built up a loyal following and - in a nice touch of historic irony - values are now much higher than they would be for that E46 330i carrying similar miles.

Bringing us to our Pill, for £8,000 it is the cheapest currently in the classifieds but still a strong-looking example of what is now a rare car. It's had two owners, with the second now selling it privately after 14 years and with the support of what seems like a comprehensive service history. It's an early car, meaning twin headlights rather than the single units of the later facelifted version, but it seems to have been ordered with every available option, including a rear power sunblind and upgraded Harmon Kardon audio system. The vendor says it has recently had a big service, and has also already had the failure-prone ABS module replaced. The X-Power grey paintwork suits it impressively well, too - and would have been a much more original colour choice when the car was new than it seems now.


The ZT 260 is also one of those cars that has become less brave as time went on. When MGR bit the dust the obvious risk was the lack of any meaningful warranty support if anything went wrong. 14 years later and that is obviously much less of an issue, especially as the rear-driver has proved to be pretty tough and with a proven engine that still enjoys comprehensive parts support from the U.S., and which will happily take chunky power upgrades. They can suffer from gearbox and differential oil leaks and various electrical issues, and the climate control is known to throw up hard-to-find faults.

There aren't many cars from MG Rover's brief independent existence that get mourned outside the small, eccentric fringe of the brand's ultra-loyalists. The ZT 260 is the one that deserves to be, far more so than the ludicrous and under-developed SV sportscar. It was produced on a shoestring budget and sold in tiny numbers, but now looks like the most interesting thing that Britain's last truly independent volume manufacturer managed to do.


See the original advert here

Author
Discussion

TristPerrin

Original Poster:

135 posts

179 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
I've been watching these for years.... And they're still very tempting. I think Id prefer the rover 75 version just because they're even rarer though.

Mr Tidy

22,488 posts

128 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
I've always thought these were great as I had a Rover P6B 3500S back in 1979 complete with a chrome V8 badge on the centre console!

So for me it would have to be an MG because they got a manual gearbox, whereas I think all the Rovers were autos. frown

But 260 bhp from a 4.6 litre V8 isn't exactly impressive - my 2005 BMW 330i has 258bhp and is way more economical.

Although there is still something about a V8 sound-track!

Edited by Mr Tidy on Saturday 26th September 03:06

soad

32,917 posts

177 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
MG Rover did have plans for a 385hp supercharged 32-valve version? frown

Deathmole

959 posts

46 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Why is this a brave pill? Not much to go on in the article is there? Only this, but it's after a paragraph extolling the strength of the driver train:

They can suffer from gearbox and differential oil leaks and various electrical issues, and the climate control is known to throw up hard-to-find faults.

Reads more like a "spotted" article to me.

Edited by Deathmole on Saturday 26th September 04:03

skyrover

12,682 posts

205 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Mr Tidy said:
I've always thought these were great as I had a Rover P6B 3500S back in 1979 complete with a chrome V8 badge on the centre console!

So for me it would have to be an MG because they got a manual gearbox, whereas I think all the Rovers were autos. frown

But 260 bhp from a 4.6 litre V8 isn't exactly impressive - my 2005 BMW 330i has 258bhp and is way more economical.

Although there is still something about a V8 sound-track!

Edited by Mr Tidy on Saturday 26th September 03:06
It's an old engine dating from the late 80's/early 90's and was at the end of it's life when Rover got their hands on it. Ford updated it to the 5.0 Coyote in the current mustang putting out between 400 and 500hp

Turbobanana

6,310 posts

202 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Deathmole said:
Why is this a brave pill? Not much to go on in the article is there? Only this, but it's after a paragraph extolling the strength of the driver train:

They can suffer from gearbox and differential oil leaks and various electrical issues, and the climate control is known to throw up hard-to-find faults.

Reads more like a "spotted" article to me.

Edited by Deathmole on Saturday 26th September 04:03
My thoughts exactly.

Under a Brave Pill heading PH said:
... with a proven engine that still enjoys comprehensive parts support from the U.S.


Walter Sobchak

5,723 posts

225 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
The age old adage of you can’t polish a turd comes to mind, sorry paperbag .

As for being a q car?, it’s hardly quick,or powerful you’d have to have taken leave of your senses to spend £8k on one of these over an (admittedly leggy) W211 E55 AMG imo.

Edited by Walter Sobchak on Saturday 26th September 07:27

ducnick

1,800 posts

244 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
same here, the Rover version is more appealing and the auto box more suited to the lazy v8. Im assuming being single cam OHV this is a compact engine like the SBC, so any thoughts of upgrading to coyote power are out of the window. Such a shame Rover didn't use the Chevy if they were already buying parts from Holden. Go GM throughout instead of mixing GM and Ford parts. That would have given us the chance to have much more modernisation fun!

Oilchange

8,480 posts

261 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Horses for courses.
If you like the American V8 noise, the comfort of a 75 and the rarity (and possibly the reliability) it trumps the German stuff hands down but it's a personal thing. I'd have a ZT260 over an equivalent German car any day. I wouldn't even supercharge it, just put an appropriate exhaust on to accompany the early morning chorus and probably a valve thing for when I want to be less of a hooligan. The HK sound would also be a must.

robsco

7,842 posts

177 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
A great looking car, but at £8k, not for me; even with a V8. I was expecting a price tag of around half that.

Dad had one of the last 2.0 diesel facelift ZTs right as the company went under, I think he paid 12k brand new. A lovely car and is still round our local area, still looking handsome.

Sandpit Steve

10,142 posts

75 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Well it’s more brave than last week’s effort, but these are pretty easy to maintain and probably going up in value. The big oily bits all come from other well-worn sources and there’s thousands of more normal 75s in breakers’ yards everywhere. The danger would be one of the ECUs failing or some damage to one of the bodywork bits that are bespoke to this model.

Edited by Sandpit Steve on Saturday 26th September 10:41

Augustus Windsock

3,374 posts

156 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
skyrover said:
Mr Tidy said:
I've always thought these were great as I had a Rover P6B 3500S back in 1979 complete with a chrome V8 badge on the centre console!

So for me it would have to be an MG because they got a manual gearbox, whereas I think all the Rovers were autos. frown

But 260 bhp from a 4.6 litre V8 isn't exactly impressive - my 2005 BMW 330i has 258bhp and is way more economical.

Although there is still something about a V8 sound-track!

Edited by Mr Tidy on Saturday 26th September 03:06
It's an old engine dating from the late 80's/early 90's and was at the end of it's life when Rover got their hands on it. Ford updated it to the 5.0 Coyote in the current mustang putting out between 400 and 500hp
I believe Dreadnought Engineering did a well respected supercharger conversion that made the old bus really move up the road
I went to look at one a good few years back, the owner was out but was quite happy for me to give it the once-over
I didn’t pull the trigger as it was suffering from bad lacquer-peel on the roof and boot iirc, and looked really neglected/sad despite low mileage
£4995 was what he wanted, and for me it was a missed opportunity I should have taken in hindsight

Car_Nut

599 posts

89 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Still struggling to understand why today anyone would buy one over a V8 X350 XJ....

cerb4.5lee

30,822 posts

181 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
I've always liked these. It was a bold move at the time I thought, I do always remember thinking how underpowered it was for a V8 though.

eldar

21,820 posts

197 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
It was a fairly mundane car. Appeal limited to nostalgia and puddingy v8 fans.

The price is optimistic i suspect.

martin12345

612 posts

90 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Stupid car produced by a stupid management team as a last throw of the dice before driving the company under
Only exceeded by the MG SV in stupidity

Standard R75 is a decent car in its own way - these RWD bodges are not

There are so many better cars out there for less money and many of them with a better V8 if that's what you want


d_a_n1979

8,509 posts

73 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
Brilliant car (chassis and handling) but they're plasticky inside and for me, you'd only buy it for the V8 bragging rights. All in they're an underpowered car, but they do drive superbly

Having owned x4 MG ZTs (120 and x2 V6 190s& inc a ZT-T 190) they're still a car I'd buy again as long as it's been looked after and maintained properly (cambelts, VIS motors, cooling system etc).

IMO the PFL ones are the ones to go for, they look more aggressive/meaner than their FL siblings; but that's my personal preference

But the 260, I'm not sure. Their prices are still high IMO and my current E39 530i touring is all in so much a better car inside and out and with a fantastic engine. Now a 260 MG ZT-T could sway me, they're rare as hens teeth and will command an even high premium, then you're into E39 M5 territory, as an example and we all know we'd all go down that route... Wouldn't we?!

anonymous-user

55 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
martin12345 said:
Stupid car produced by a stupid management team as a last throw of the dice before driving the company under
Only exceeded by the MG SV in stupidity

Standard R75 is a decent car in its own way - these RWD bodges are not

There are so many better cars out there for less money and many of them with a better V8 if that's what you want
Name some V8 cars on the market that are both better cars and cheaper.

I don't agree that it's a stupid car but it does seem a stupid choice for MGROVER to have made, commercially, at the time.

Callum43

294 posts

53 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
I had not , knowingly , seen one of these for ages . However the son in law at the house opposite ours is part of a family run garage in West London . For the last few weeks he has been turning up in one on an 02 plate in metallic blue . It looks in great condition and sounds lovely and V8ish . I suppose he’s taken it into stock and is using it to run about in . I now spend too much time looking at it when it’s parked up contemplating how I can realistically engage him in conversation and have a look around.
I’m not sure whether you’d really want to take the plunge and buy one to keep it standard but I reckon it would make a great platform for a custom/tuned one that was somewhat different.

irocfan

40,587 posts

191 months

Saturday 26th September 2020
quotequote all
I'm quite fond of these and would certainly be tempted to step away from the herd looking at a BM etc


skyrover said:
It's an old engine dating from the late 80's/early 90's and was at the end of it's life when Rover got their hands on it. Ford updated it to the 5.0 Coyote in the current mustang putting out between 400 and 500hp
You're sort of right - it was the old engine in the MG but that 4.6 was replaced by a different 4.6 for the S197 which was then replaced by the Coyote.